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ARP Binding kills Denon 3808 music server in WEB mode

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by jsmiddleton4, Oct 23, 2011.

  1. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Playing with 1.28.7486.2.

    I have 2 E3000 mostly using WDS mode. Played with WEB mode due to another thread. In WDS mode all items connected to my slave router that is in my entertainment center work fine. Denon 3808 internet music server works perfectly.

    In WEB mode I have to turn off ARP binding in the main router in order for the streaming to work.

    In every other way the Denon works. I can access it via wireless connection. Access its setup information, even select radio stations via my laptop. But the server says its disconnected when it tries to play music.

    Turn ARP binding off, works fine.

    The thing that gets flakey with WEB mode is the main router "sees" the IP of the slave, does not really "see" the IP of the slave attached devices. I do not know how to unravel the mystery in regards to how ARP works when in WEB mode.

    I prefer WDS because in WDS mode each device whether attached to the main router or the slave routers is seen as a separate device. Makes bandwidth monitoring, etc., credible. In WEB mode I can only monitor the slave's IP and not attached devices.

    However with dual mode routers like the E3000 I still keep wireless AP access on the slave. The WEB is done via the 5ghz channels. So in that regard WEB still acts like WDS mode.

    IMHO the ARP not working in WEB mode is not a bug. I believe it is working the way it simply works. Would just like to understand why.
  2. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    With the minimal overhead WDS carries with it with just 2 routers I'm pretty sure testing would show the difference in speed between 2 routers in WDS mode and WEB mode small BUT seems like WEB is a bit snappier.
  3. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Also I suspect something about the way the Denon network stuff is coded in its network implementation that does not allow it to see that the server is connected. Its not very robust in terms of its coding. It has a hard time restoring from a default state and I have to turn it off and back on so it can renegotiate the ip/dns/gateway stuff. Does not matter if I hard code it or not. Hard coding and ARP being on does not work either.
  4. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Well the Denon network stuff is weak but tested all devices attached to slave WEB router and as suspected any ARP shuts them down. They are "seen" but no traffic can pass through to them. ARP being on or off on the slave router's MAC/IP makes no difference. ARP on, devices ARP off, works. ARP on, devices on, no traffic flow. ARP off for slave, ARP on for devices, no traffic. ARP on or off for slave, ARP off for devices, works.

    Again not a bug. Just running into limitations of ARP binding and WEB mode. WEB mode the master router sees the slave, not the devices, so ARP binding works as designed and turns off traffic for attached devices.
  5. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    ARP binding in slave? Hmmmm......
  6. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Well I can monitor slave attached devices but it doesn't really do much else since in WEB mode the master does all the dhcp heavy lifting.
  7. Mercjoe

    Mercjoe Network Guru Member

  8. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Adding static/arp binding to the slave/bridge does clean up the device display in the master/main router. Again not sure why but now the main device display shows the slave as the attached device. Adding the devices attached to the slave in its static/arp binding is removing them from the master display and making the master device display not only less confusing, but accurate.
  9. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    "Wirelss Multicast Forwarding"

    I'll look but pretty sure for my setup the issue was ARP binding in the main router.
  10. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    ARP binding is what I needed to tweak. The multicast thing is already incorporated into the GUI by the way. Setting it does not solve my issue. My issue is ARP is working as designed. The master router sees the IP of the slave in WEB mode. ARP binding set to on for slave attached devices is working as designed since the master router sees the MAC/IP of the slave router. So in WEB mode you can't use ARP binding in the master router for slave attached devices. Works in a way when ARP binding added to the slave router for slave router attached devices. Doesn't really do anything with the DHCP assignments and I still have slave attached devices static IP reserved in the master router. ARP being on in the slave, as noted, cleans up the device attached display in the main router AND it list the slave router properly as THE attached device in the master router device display.

    Also I added the main/master router MAC/IP into the slaves Static/ARP fields.

    So WEB and WDS work with the non-vlan version. Which is what I was trying to discover. It isn't either or. Each has its pros/cons. With dual band, like the E3000, I don't lose the AP function of the slave. If I didn't have dual band, I'd use WDS to maintain the AP functions of the 2nd or "slave" router.

    Also if I needed to keep close track on, QOS, etc., of all devices, I'd use WDS. WEB basically confuses all those functions as the main router only "sees" the slave MAC/IP. Again not a bug. That is the way it works. Although if an application required limiting bandwidth to all slave attached devices as a group, WEB might be better as you could limit the bandwidth to one MAC/IP, the slave router, and be done with it.
  11. Mercjoe

    Mercjoe Network Guru Member


    I can see ALL the machines attached to the slave router via WEB. QOS and IP bandwidth tracking all work correctly for me. All machines on the slave end of the network can see the computers on the main router. As far as the network is concerned the wireless link between the routers is non-existant.

    I do not use ARP binding. I DO use static IP's for all machines that are wired and one wireless laptop. All other devices are wireless and served a dynamic IP as assigned via DHCP.

    I suggest turning EVERYTHING off on the remote router that you can.Reset it to default, set the IP and the WEB info and leave it alone. I can log into the remote router no problem but there is really no need to do that once things are going.

    Let the main router do everything that the router is supposed to do. The remote router just provides the link. ALL QOS, firewall, routing, logging is done by the main router.

    The only problem I have found so far with WEB is that a access restriction must be IP based and not MAC based.
  12. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    "ALL the machines attached to the slave router via WEB"

    Me too. But any attempt to manage them in the master router does nothing. The main/master router only sees the slave's IP/MAC. You can verify this by picking some of the devices hung off the slave listed in the main router's device table and look at the OUI. On some of them you'll see the slave router's OUI. Not the devices actual OUI. The main router is showing the slave router's OUI because that is what it "sees".
  13. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    "I suggest turning EVERYTHING off"

    Thanks I guess. Mine is working just fine so I have no intention of going backwards.
  14. Mercjoe

    Mercjoe Network Guru Member

    Opened main router...

    Looking at machines on the remote router..... (let me clarify. This is in the device list on the MAIN router)

    Selected OUI for one machine:

    00-07-E9 (hex) Intel Corporation
    0007E9 (base 16) Intel Corporation
    MS: JF3-420
    2111 NE 25th Ave.
    Hillsboro OR 97124

    Next machine - My server:

    00-30-67 (hex) BIOSTAR MICROTECH INT'L CORP.
    003067 (base 16) BIOSTAR MICROTECH INT'L CORP.
    2FL. NO. 108-2 MIN CHUAN ROAD

    And my remote router:

    00-13-10 (hex) Cisco-Linksys, LLC
    001310 (base 16) Cisco-Linksys, LLC
    121 Theory
    Irvine CA 92612
  15. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Yep. 3 out of my several connected to my slave report properly. Several report the slave OUI information. As noted you have to use the device IP's to manage traffic. The reason why is using MAC is unreliable or won't work at all because the main router "sees" the slave, not devices.

    I don't really care if you believe me or not by the way.

    Enjoy how you are setup. Glad it works for you.

    WEB is designed a certain way. WDS is designed to work a different way. ARP a certain way. ARP bangs up against WEB because of how they are designed. WDS does not.
  16. Mercjoe

    Mercjoe Network Guru Member

    I just tried to provide insight into what, for me, is a working configuration that does the things you are trying to do. I never said I did not believe you. I just tried to provide an alternate point of view using a working network as a baseline for a discussion.

    Have a blast guy...

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