Sabai OS

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by eahm, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    Does anyone knows about this firmware? It's practically Tomato with a different interface. Would like to know which one they are based from and more info.
  2. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    They do specify they're based on Tomato:

    Now, I'm not someone who gets fanatic about licenses and such (I always favor common sense and mutual respect before anal legalese), but... <cough>GPL sources?<cough>

    Same with Easy Tomato BTW - I haven't seen much in terms of GPL sources from them. Would be nice if people taking some of the Tomato devs' work would actually give back to the community instead of going all commercial with their improvements on top of free code. Just saying.

    I guess the fact that Tomato no longer has an "owner" or a lead developer with Jonathan Zarate gone makes it easier for these kind of things to happen :(
    Elfew likes this.
  3. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    Yeah, these "side projects" should provide their changes etc.... for example easytomato just takes, doenst give anything back to the base project
  4. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    Due to the legal limbo where Tomato currently lies, maybe the current lead Tomato devs (Toastman, Shibby, Victek, etc...) should do one "final" fork, rename that fork, and claim copyrights on that new name as a group, and do all further development on that new fork (they could all have their separate forks like they do currently), and let the old Tomato codebase rot away.

    That way, if someone were to reuse their code for their own project, they would have either to base it on the rotting Tomato code, or base it on the new trunk (call it "Potato" if you wish), where GPL could be loosely enforced by the current devs. We'd still see Potato-Shibby, Potato-Toastman, etc... It would just give them some control over who does what with Potato, as opposed to Tomato.
    octra, Python46 and bmupton like this.
  5. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    A little history here. When Fedor left, it was discussed and decided that I would take over the admin of the tomatousb fork and make periodic releases of "base builds" which could be used individually or by developers to build on. The reason being that Fedor felt that I would continue to keep Tomato base as a "lean and fast" firmware and update where necessary. This would have been purely a combined effort with the same group of contributors and testers that worked with Fedor previously.

    Unfortunately, the TomatoUSB site did not belong to Fedor, and after a few exchanges of mails with the actual owner, communication seemed to stop and as a result I never did get proper access to the site, passwords, support, download site, etc. and I have no idea what happened. But, to be honest, I had agreed to do it against my better judgement. It is a thankless task and one which I didn't really need and don't really have time for. We're talking here of devoting most of one's "life" here to this project for no reward and much hassle. Of all the original contributors, almost all of them have also since thrown in the towel since we were making no progress after several months. :eek:

    As someone there keeps pointing out, the tomatousb site is basically a corpse that refuses to be buried as someone is still making money from it. Nobody wants to use that awful broken wiki-style software, and I wish it would die gracefully. The fact is, tomato discussion moved back to it's original home here on

    Jon Zarate (wherever he is) still owns tomato code, and the GUI of Tomato, which is it's main feature, is not part of the GPL. Personally, I'm reasonably happy with the way things are at the moment and I think the Tomato name needs to be kept as it is.

    Incidentally, I see no realistic way to enforce the GPL. There are a good many companies using Tomato in their products now, many of which don't honour the GPL in any form, nor give any credit to the owner.
  6. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    Guess we'll have to live with it then. It's just a shame to see that a lot of people are hoping to see dual-wan support in Tomato (for example). Some company takes the open source code, adds Dual WAN support, and sells it, without giving back any code to the community. And since the legal owner has been MIA (quite possibly dead since nobody ever succeeded in even getting in touch with him since the Tsunami :( ) then no one can do anything about it.
  7. koitsu

    koitsu Network Guru Member

    The GPL portions (depending on what GPL license is used) and any changes they (Sabai) make to them by licensing/law have to be provided publicly. If they don't, they're violating the license.

    This exact situation happened with Miranda IM (which is under GPL), multiple times. In the case of "ZeeZ IM", the company (Quickriver) just straight up disappeared/collapsed after pressure + news/media got a hold of the issue. Enjoy:

    What you do about this is really simple: read the official GPL FAQ. Reporting violations is easy, and the FSF will help you (really). I'm going to assume GPL 2.0 is what's used:

    Do something about this. Really. Contact the FSF!

    I would also advocate doing what the Miranda IM folks do, which is have a sticky-post that has a list of all the software/companies/whatever who are violating the GPL (in regard to Tomato/TomatoUSB bits). Public shame does wonders with commercial companies (PR nightmares are nightmares no matter what size the company is). The instant Slashdot picks up on it, oh trust me, there will be hell to pay.

    Now -- the actual Tomato bits, as in the "written by Jonathan Zarate" bits -- are under some strange license (meaning just a copyright line I think, and/or some other part that is vague/hard to comprehend and I'm sure could be battled legally day and night). No one is truly 100% certain (some are 80% certain) exactly what Jon's license means because even though he seems to be alive/around he doesn't respond to any mail about Tomato and/or its license. So nobody's sure what to do about it.

    Footnote (because this always comes up when licenses get discussed -- eventually licensing zealots start slinging mud): I do not "support" the GPL, meaning I do not use it for code I own/invent/etc. I choose the 2-clause BSD license (akin to "do whatever the hell you want with this as long as you retain the license/copyright in this file") because I find the GPL to be akin to forcing one's religion upon another (and I don't agree with that premise, even if it's for a good cause). However, I do contribute to lots of open-source software released under the GPL and gladly comply with it. TL;DR -- I hate the concept of licenses altogether; if all humans understood (truly) the meaning of the phrase "be reasonable" we wouldn't need licenses. Look up/read the WTFPL if you want my opinion of what I think of licenses in general, even though I do use the 2-clause BSD one myself.
  8. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    Anyway, that was just a "BTW", as the Sabai situation reminded me of what I discovered a few weeks ago as I was looking at EasyTomato and trying to dig out source code on their website (without success). As I said, I'm not a fanatical license enforcer either, and always rely on common sense and mutual respect before anything else. I actually contacted Keith to get his permission to reuse his OpenVPN code in Asuswrt-Merlin, for example.

    If someone feels this is worth complaining about to the FSF, they're probably free to do so. I doubt any of the current Tomato devs are inclined to devote time and efforts on this - and I totally understand them. Personally, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this either.

    And I agree that the licensing terms are sometimes confusing with Tomato. There seems to be an odd mixture of licensing terms in the various bits that were added to it over time, not just the copyrighted webui.
  9. mstombs

    mstombs Network Guru Member

    Easytomato is based off Toastman RT-N with the updated web interface from these forums, and source is freely available via github, of course it's not yet up V1.0, but another beta only the other day with nice features for new RT-N16 users!

    I don't see any conflict with tomato licensing since its a non-commercial not-for-profit project with nice ideals!
  10. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    Thanks for the link. I couldn't find any reference to it on their website when I checked.
  11. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    I like their features - blocking HTTPS sites, easy to use QoS or access restriction... I really miss HTTPS blocking in tomato fw
  12. mstombs

    mstombs Network Guru Member

    I should declare an interest - https discussion and xt_string was a thread on these forums - latest EasyTomato beta version also has bundled adblocking with pixelserv (source on here) and block image - look familiar?

    You don't need the base64 nvram version as the plain script can be built into highly compressed squashfs firmware filesystem.

    Hope you all agree they are operating with best intentions re acknowledging contributions!

    - I haven't tried it yet, lots of fiddly details were left to EasyTomato team!

    Back to thread topic -

    Is Sabai OS a US company, selling products in the US?

    If so I'm suspect the BusyBox lawyers may be interested!
  13. koitsu

    koitsu Network Guru Member

    No offence dude, but you're a bloody broken record. I've told you how to fix/address this, and pointed you to the thread. To accomplish HTTPS blocking you need the xt_string module (no guarantees it works for IPv6 packets). The thread I'm referring to, and mstombs is referring to, is this:

    Yes it's long, and it contains full, deep technical details. I provide a patch/diff at the end. If Toastman/shibby/etc. choose not to enable this in their firmware, that's perfectly fine -- no harm done!

    But I keep telling people -- the more features and crap you want, the more likely the flash space is going to reach size limits. There are already tons upon tons of threads here where people want X features but only have routers with 4MBytes of flash. Soon this is going to bite people with only 8MBytes of flash. You people who want all these features need to settle down and realise that every person seems to want something different and all of your wants conflict with one another. This is why building it yourself would be best.
  14. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    WRD - EasyTomato and Python46 like this.
  15. WRD - EasyTomato

    WRD - EasyTomato Networkin' Nut Member

    Hey RMerlin, sorry our github link was a bit hidden (the link was buried in our FAQ). We're about to redo the Get EasyTomato page and will have our github link more obviously placed. As mstombs said, we are a nonprofit organization in the US using Tomato to make schools, hospitals, and nonprofits around the world have better internet access. We're never going to charge for EasyTomato and we will always keep the source 100% open. If for any reason anyone think we are violating any of the licenses surrounding Tomato, please let us know and we'll fix it.

    @mstombs: Thanks for clarifying this!

    BTW, we're happy to help any dev incorporate any of our features, just have to ask! (or take the code from github) We're also thankful for the help we've received from these forums.

    Back to the Sabai question. I've just emailed them to get a link to their source code and I'll link everyone to it once I get a reply. I strongly agree people should be "reasonable" rather jumping right to legal stuff, but taking other hard work and making money while not crediting or sharing back isn't "reasonable" in my eyes. That being said, let's wait to see what Sabai has to say before we cast stones. :)
  16. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    OK, I tried you fix/feature,,, without success
  17. RMerlin

    RMerlin Network Guru Member

    No problem. :) I just wanted to have a quick look at the sources out of curiosity. I didn't know its author actually visited this forum. Sorry for the false alarm!
    M_ars likes this.
  18. koitsu

    koitsu Network Guru Member

    Really? Thanks for providing absolutely no details of what you did / what rules you entered. Also, please if you could, discuss this in the previously linked thread, not this one.
  19. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    I didnt say that your fix/feature is not working. I think I missed something... It doesnt work for me, but I will try it again in my free time...

    This this the reason why I wanna include this to the builds,,,
  20. koitsu

    koitsu Network Guru Member

    "I tried your fix/feature without success"
    "It doesn't work for me"

    These statements contain absolutely zero technical information in them. Zero. You can't expect someone to help you when this is all you say. In the other thread -- not this one -- you're going to need to provide full details of what you did to build the firmware with xt_string support, what commands you ran on the router, and what iptables rules you added (full commands/output, do not summarise or try to be terse).
  21. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    sir, yes sir! _))No, I am just kidding ;)

    I cannot do it during the day, because my main router is really important for my home office -> without internet with broken router during the day -> my nightmare... so I will try it again maybe during the weekend... I dont have any spare router for experiments...
  22. koitsu

    koitsu Network Guru Member

    Gotcha! I'm in the same predicament, BTW. Only router I have presently is my RT-N16 for main use. I might, whenever I get a job, pick up an RT-N66U for my main and then use the RT-N16 as a dev/test router. So I sympathise/understand. :)
    Elfew likes this.
  23. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    I will buy new router from Asus, I am waiting for their new model, after that I will use my rt-16n for experiments... I wanna use it like a repeater, because I have bad signal on some places at home or in garden ;)
  24. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    There are a great many new routers coming out now, some with strange hardware, and many of them will be niche products, doubtful if they will ever have tomato ported to them. It may make more sense to wait, until it's supported.

    Glad u can help out. When you've something you think is stable, let us know and we'll see about test releases.
  25. WRD - EasyTomato

    WRD - EasyTomato Networkin' Nut Member

    Hey Toastman,

    We've got HTTPS blocking working on our newest alpha using iptables string match to knock out DNS lookups. We're still look in the URL string too, as the old way did.

    We should have it out to beta shortly and once its tested and tweaked, we're happy to help you put it in your build, if you're interested. (Here are the commits 1, 2 where we added it)
    eahm likes this.
  26. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    It would be good, because I need to block https websites - facebook, twitter etc. I can change host file but it is permanent, I wanna block these https sites only during night hours...

    I will make another test build, because my last test was unsuccessful. I will have some time on the weekend so I will try
  27. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    @wrd - Thanks! I am busy for a few days, but I will take a look at it. :D
    HitheLightz and Elfew like this.
  28. jerrm

    jerrm Network Guru Member

    I understand wanting a permanent and proper solution, but could a cron job swapping host files be a workable temporary fix?
  29. Elfew

    Elfew Network Guru Member

    Yes, it could work... but I prefer integrate it to the firmware
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