1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tomato micro?

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by M_ars, May 11, 2007.

  1. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    Hi,
    i am using Tomato (WRT54GL) for few month now and was just wondering if it is possible to create a micro version of Tomato? (for example DD-WRT v23 mircro generic...) I have also a WRT54GS v5.1 with only 2MB and 16MB ram and I would like to run Tomato on that router too. Right now DD-WRT V23 SP2 micro runs on it but I would prefer tomato :)
    Can something like that be done?
     
  2. ifican

    ifican Network Guru Member

    Of course it can, the problem is going to be getting someone to do it.
     
  3. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I don't know what has been removed in dd-wrt but if I remember correctly
    the compression type have been changed to a more effective firmware compression...
     
  4. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    I dont know either what has been removed but for example there is no samba, JFFS2 or CIFS Client. I gues without those features (maybe a few more...) the new *.bin file would be small enough to fit in a 2MB device.
    DD-WRT micro has around: 1696 KB
    Tomato: 2693 KB
    But who could make such a micro version of tomato? :)
     
  5. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    most builds of DDWRT micro don't include PPPoE either...:confused:
     
  6. h3xis

    h3xis LI Guru Member

    Well, how hard would it be to do and what all would need to be done? Would the unnecessary packages be left out before compiling and that be it?
     
  7. jeradc

    jeradc LI Guru Member

    You would have to fix any of the dependencies as well, so you could even compile, and then you would have to test all the functionality to verify what you did.
     
  8. h3xis

    h3xis LI Guru Member

    Right. Basically the firmware image would have to end up with a size of no more than 1.7MB, so I would assume.

    Is this true? Where could I find more information about this?
     
  9. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    this is not the only thing that was changed.
     
  10. bogderpirat

    bogderpirat Network Guru Member

  11. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    It's probably very likely that a micro build would loose the bandwidth utility in tomato...
     
  12. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    FWIW, I would use a Tomato Micro that's missing the bandwidth utility in my extra WRT54G V.6 that is just sitting there.:smile:
     
  13. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    I don´t think that we would have to give up the bandwidth utiltiy, but thats just a gues. :)
    If i try to make a new firmware, how can I find out that everythings works just fine? Virtual machine? (virtual pc 2007 or .... )??? :confused:
     
  14. h3xis

    h3xis LI Guru Member

    I was wondering the same thing. I'd attempt to create to an image but I'm not sure how I would be able to test it. I do have an extra WRT54G v6 laying around but I would rather test it elsewhere (if possible) without permanently bricking it.
     
  15. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

  16. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think getting rid of libcrypto(~600K) and moving up to Squashfs 3.0 is a good start...
     
  17. rcordorica

    rcordorica Network Guru Member

    The only "firmware compression" I can imagine is if you compile the individual parts of open-wrt with -Os (optimized for small size). I am guessing the code.bin is really a kernel image. AFAIK, kernel images can be compressed with various methods (lzma, gzip, squashfs) but eventually they will have to be decompressed in memory (and the wrt's don't have swap space, although you could make one).
     
  18. tunasashimi

    tunasashimi LI Guru Member

    Yeah... all that and then you're going to have a mission getting it on the WRT if I'm not mistaken the 5.1 uses a different bootloader...

    Or is it a simple matter of "upgrading" the firmware via a web interface?

    Or yet simpler, via tftp...?
     
  19. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    DD-WRT V23 SP3 already runs on the WRT v5.1. There shoudn´t be any problem with the bootloader... only the 2MB flash memory makes it a little bit of a challange :biggrin:
     
  20. gingernut

    gingernut LI Guru Member

    Tomato Micro is on it's way and shouldn't take too long.
    Victek over in Spain will be starting a micro build, with the help of Jon, soon.
    At the moment what's going to be removed are dropbear, lptp the rest is not confirmed.

    For who understands Spanish and is interested :
    http://www.adslzone.net/forum36.html
     
  21. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    This is great news! I have a WRT54G v5 collecting dust in my closet. I had DD-WRT working on it a while ago, but personally, it doesn't have NEARLY the stability that Tomato has. I couldn't keep that thing online for more than 2 or 3 days without it crashing/freezing etc... Don't even get me started on the stock VxWorks firmware!
     
  22. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    Thank god! I have a micro install on my 6 in the livingroom & the only way I have found around my AP dropping connection was tomato... now I can set it up in there as well!

    Cant read spanish but then that is what google languages is for ;)
     
  23. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    Any updates on this?
    My ver. 6 is getting very restless:biggrin:
     
  24. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Am I to assume that the same procedure will have to be done to get VxWorks off the v5/6 as with DD-WRT micro? I used a VxWorks killer and applied the Linux bootloader to get DD-WRT on the v5 I have.

    If i've already done this, then I assume I could just simply flash Tomato micro over top of DD-WRT since it's already Linux?
     
  25. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think that is correct since the Boot Loader was already replaced.
    what is to be removed libcrypto,openssl,dropbear all software is compiled with Os where possible.
    I've played around with it managed to bring it down to 2MB another 300K needs to be scraped from somewhere...
     
  26. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    Yeah, I've got dd-wrt micro on it already, so I'm ready to go!
     
  27. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    I am aware one strength of Tomato is Jon's Bandwidth monitor, but in the interest of size, try removing it and see if it works...:confused:
     
  28. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    I'd be fine with that, I mainly looking for stability with my ver. 6
     
  29. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think I'll try to loose L2TP which depends on PPPD which is also not needed.
    the CIFS module is also 100K... but I want to try keeping it.
    still playing with it, but I don't have a V5+ to test it on when I'm done, only WRT54GLs. :grin:
     
  30. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Would it be possible to make different versions of Tomato micro? Maybe one that has certain features stripped but not others, and another that has the other features included but not the ones from the first version? That way you could choose which one you needed based on the features you need.
     
  31. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    That is what I had in mind... :grin:
     
  32. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    If you can, try keep the PPPoE... you will lose a large protion of the cummunity if you loose this feature...
     
  33. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    +1:smile:
     
  34. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I'm thinking about flavors e.g. Micro + pppoe, Micro + pptp
    due to lack of space and I hate losing the cifs client
     
  35. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    I think this thread should be stickied.
     
  36. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    well i believe for a functional firmware, losing cifs isn't a big deal (=
     
  37. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I'm trying to bump SquashFS to v3.0 and check size of resulting image file.
    but I don't have much time right now to spend on it right now.
    :grin:
     
  38. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    which would you like to loose... bandwidth or cifs?
     
  39. arigosh

    arigosh Network Guru Member

    I would consider both PPPOE and PPTP as core functionalities of a broadband router. CIFS, as usefull as it is, is much less important.
     
  40. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    heh found something worthy of note here regarding SquashFS.

    Apparently, you can get up to 30%(10-15% for normal use) better compression by patching SquashFS to use LZMA instead of gzip for compression.
    The downsides are
    1. Its not officially supported
    2. The patches i found online applies to the 2.6 kernel
    3. I read somewhere that the 2.6 kernel doesn't play nice with the broadcom's wifi module

    I guess this could be a good alternative to cutting more features out but might require some working on. Also, i guess other kernel patches exists out there, except that i didn't stumble upon them (=

    Anyway,
    http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1113639&forum_id=215699
    http://www.squashfs-lzma.org/
     
  41. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

  42. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    heh be sure to keep us posted on ur progress ^^ would be nice to see a image size comparison between e 2 versions. this could possibly be added back into the main branch (though tomato doesn't seem to be growing tt large to need it yet i guess)
     
  43. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    do you know whether dd-wrt use squashfs-lzma?
     
  44. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

  45. mstombs

    mstombs Network Guru Member

    Just thought I'd mention:- 3rd party Routertech firmware (based on Acorp GPL sources) for the TI AR7 chipset ADSL routers is now using squashfs-lzma 3.x, with a 2.4.x kernel

    probably from

    http://mcmcc.bat.ru/dlinkt/acorp-russia/gpl_source/

    Suspect the Montavista Linux distro is heavily patched by Ti etc to make it completely different to Broadcom based Linksys - but ...
     
  46. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    bump! hey roadkill any updates? ^^
     
  47. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    I have nothing useful to add, but I didn't want to see this thread disappear.
    Any updates?
     
  48. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    bump... somebody make this sticky already
     
  49. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    any news yet?
     
  50. Low-WRT

    Low-WRT LI Guru Member

    please...:)
    my v6 is tired of being a paper weight
     
  51. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    can't get it to drop from 1.9mb ...
     
  52. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    oh well, i think the next best thing in this case will be to work from openwrt, and port the tomato gui over.
     
  53. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think it will prove to be a better solution....
     
  54. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    Well, I have seen the light and embraced vegitation... I Was using DDWRT because of the SD mod on my 2.2 in the livingroom but as I run in WDS and the wireless faults in recent builds I figured I'd give it a shot and I am quite impressed. I'm only hoping for a version small enough that I can put it on my GS v6. If I can get that then I will be more than tickled and my kids will be as well (playing HALO & such across the house).

    Are/is there a complete guide to home compile a version? As I understand currently its in the works by a few but seems to be having a bit of a size issue.
     
  55. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    OK, holding that in mind what does it have in it?
     
  56. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Is that not enough? I thought the micro only had to be below 2MB, because that's the flash size of the v5+ units.
     
  57. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    OK, so in a nutshell what your saying is your going to take the stable firmware we adore and go ahead with an unstable version we all know about and have tried and rejected and give it a makeover so it looks like what we are after.....

    Or could it be worded... taking all the things that wont fit in a micro install of tomato and trying to make it using tomato components but using an unstable release.... (This one confuses the hell out of me as if it doesnt fit in one box it certainly wont fit in another box the same size).

    While I do appreciate all your efforts thus far, can somebody write a tutorial or how to on compiling a custom version of tomato and I'll be more than happy to brick my router and have a go at it. This v6 is the only router in my house that is making things unstable and I'd love to get it resolved.
     
  58. Toxic

    Toxic Administrator Staff Member

    tbh the far easier way is to get a WRT54GL
     
  59. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    Perhaps, but like many I have my family and I put everything I get into that... as a result the niceties are not really high priority. Far simpler to take existing equipment and tweak it with some guidance than go buy another piece of hardware to do the same thing as what I have already ad to shelf the one I already have.
     
  60. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    And... it looks like this thread is dead now...
     
  61. GeeTek

    GeeTek Guest

    Yes, it is indeed. :sadbye:
     
  62. Talon88

    Talon88 LI Guru Member

    .......really.......??
     
  63. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    It's a shame.. really... I for one would still love to see a Tomato Micro... I mean, DD-WRT has more bloat than Tomato and it has a micro build so why can't oh-so-efficient Tomato?
     
  64. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    I for one would really hope to see a Tomato Micro for those newer Linksys units (which unfortunately quite many are stuck with).
     
  65. Toxic

    Toxic Administrator Staff Member

    why do you guys wish all the time this will happen when the author has not even made any suggestion that he would make a micro version. the easiest solution is buy a WRT54GL. full stop.
     
  66. GeeTek

    GeeTek Guest

    You don't want Tomato Micro, you want Cherry Tomatoes. :noway:
     
  67. fiurico

    fiurico Network Guru Member

    LMFAO Can I rep you for that one? That was wicked awesome!!!
     
  68. ray_burnz

    ray_burnz LI Guru Member

    3 weeks later - hoping the micro Tomato dream is still alive.
     
  69. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    It's a shame that the WRT54GL can't be purchased on most store shelves... The ONLY place I've ever seen it available is online. I've looked in Best Buy, Circuit City, Staples Business Depot.. etc.. They all carry the WRT54G v5-8 or the GS v5-7. I just wish those places would stock the GL. because frankly, I hate buying stuff online, cause you have to pay shipping and most of the time the product is more expensive online unless it's used.

    For this reason, and I think others might agree, I think that the Tomato Micro (aka Cherry Tomato) project *should* remain alive. I'd do it myself If I knew how.. Unfortunately I'm not versed in Linux programming..
     
  70. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    From other posts I gather that Roadkill came pretty close, he had a firmware build that was 1.9 MB. But 1.7 MB is needed.

    So close!

    I really thought that if only some less-usual features were removed (e.g. PPTP) it would be possible
     
  71. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Surely if DD-WRT can do it, Tomato can. DD-WRT has even more features than Tomato. Mind you, a lot of them are useless. Even the micro version of DD-WRT has more features than the standard Tomato (that I'm aware of). Tomato itself is only 2.7 MB... It must be more difficult than I thought to shave off one megabyte. Not knowing much about Linux, that 1 MB could be key.
     
  72. azeari

    azeari LI Guru Member

    GhaladReam. the problem here is that tomato and DD-WRT are based off totally different firmwares.

    Tomato is based off the official linksys firmware, which means it implements newer firmwares from linksys into its own, while adding additional features to it such as QOS.

    DD-WRT on the other hand is based off the Open-WRT project, which is a firmware built ground-up for the WRT's architecture.

    thus, size wise, there's gonna be a difference. the edge tomato has here, is cuz it follows closely to the official firmware, it is much safer for the end user. less chances of bugs frying and bricking your router and such. (=
     
  73. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    Roadkill made it to 1.9 MB.

    Just that LITTLE BIT MORE .... :bounce:
     
  74. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Hmm, I think I did know that, I just didn't realize it made such a difference. Thanks for the info!
     
  75. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think if I could compile using a different toolchain and a newer GCC with Os maybe I can get to 1.5mb...
     
  76. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    You're DA MAN!
     
  77. mstombs

    mstombs Network Guru Member

    Don't forget to upgrade squashfs-lzma to v3+
     
  78. roadkill

    roadkill Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    yes I will..
     
  79. digitalgeek

    digitalgeek Network Guru Member

    I resale the GL regularly if some one is willing to pay shipping from Canada I send the GL preloaded with the latest Tomato!
     
  80. jon124

    jon124 LI Guru Member

    keep at it roadkill!
     
  81. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    A list of what was removed from the original firmware would be perfect as well :)
     
  82. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    Wow... I can hardly wait for the Cherry Tomato to come out of the oven!!
     
  83. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    me too :)
     
  84. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    Technically, the smallest Tomatoes are grape tomatoes. Shouldn't Tomato Micro be called Grape Tomato?
     
  85. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    My vote goes to "Tomato Puree" ...
     
  86. ray_burnz

    ray_burnz LI Guru Member

    We need an official poll so we can vote on the name.
     
  87. devilkin

    devilkin LI Guru Member

    Would be majorly cool to have a Tomato for WRT54G v5 and on... I'm going to inherit one tomorrow, and DD-WRT looks so dull after having used Tomato so long :p
     
  88. GhaladReam

    GhaladReam Network Guru Member

    And Bloated!
     
  89. jon124

    jon124 LI Guru Member




    amen!
     
  90. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    That may be jumping the gun a little. There's no firmware yet!

    But whoever comes up with the firmware (I think Roadkill is the main contender) should have the honor of christening this new "thing", in true pomological fashion.
     
  91. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    Nothing new to report?
     
  92. ng12345

    ng12345 LI Guru Member

    looks like this project has gone by the wayside --

    i would like to see tomato on my belkin routers in the future
     
  93. HarshReality

    HarshReality Network Guru Member

    Pity, I have one v6 linksys that is the only one in the house NOT supporting Tomato.. was really looking forward to a complete backbone.
     
  94. guillaumy

    guillaumy LI Guru Member

    It seems that there it is not possible to see Tomato Micro. A pity, especially since there are currently some problems with "the other firmware".
     
  95. disposition

    disposition LI Guru Member

    Bump. Looking forward to a Tomato Micro :) DD-WRT seems nice, but I like Tomato's interface a great deal more.
     
  96. Toxic

    Toxic Administrator Staff Member

    it would be quicker guys just to buy a WRT54GL than to wait for something that may not happen.
     
  97. disposition

    disposition LI Guru Member

    Quicker, but more expensive.

    I'm poor, so I'm going with what I've got. DD-WRT Micro will be my choice until we see a Tomato Micro.
     
  98. FRiC

    FRiC LI Guru Member

    I also want to see a micro version eventhough I have other more capable routers. This is because before I heard of the WRT54GL, stupid me bought several other crippled Linksys routers and access points. The crippled ones are just being used as access points now, but I imagine they would be much more stable with Tomato.

    What sucked more was that the WRT54GL costs less than all those crippled routers or access points.
     
  99. M_ars

    M_ars LI Guru Member

    I totally agree. I am still hoping that some day there will be a micro-version of tomato. Right now I am using V23 SP3 micro for my 2MB flashmemory deveices... the latest build is actually working pretty good.
     
  100. danix71

    danix71 LI Guru Member

    OT: Me too. :biggrin:
     

Share This Page