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WDS using wired for backbone???

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by jpstoppa, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. jpstoppa

    jpstoppa Network Guru Member

    Is it possible to use Ethernet cable to connect my access point and still have WDS? I have a setup in a warehouse where I can run cable between my WRT54GLs. I looked at the WIKI and searched the forums but could not find anything regarding what I want to do.
  2. gingernut

    gingernut LI Guru Member

    Yes it is possble.
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa LI Guru Member

    WDS stands for Wireless Distribution System. If you are distributing wired, you don't need WDS. Just connect via LAN port, set the same SSID, security method, and passphrase on the second AP and disable DHCP on it.
  4. jpstoppa

    jpstoppa Network Guru Member

    I uderstand that. I have done it before where I just use the same SSID on both APs and just disable DHCP server on one. However, when a laptop 'transferred' to the 2nd access point, the connection was lost and remade again. i would rather it no do that. I am positive I set up both routers correctly. Anyone can recommend something????
  5. Relax Preppy

    Relax Preppy Addicted to LI Member

    im in the same predicament... need to expand my wireless but run it off a wired backbone. running WDS without a wired backbone im getting <1Mbps throughput.

    im now running my 2nd WRT54G to the 1st WRT54G with a cat5e cable, but im not having any luck... what wireless mode should the 2nd, non routing, device be in?
  6. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I'm very confused - you want to run wireless on a wired connection? Please explain. Do you mean, you just want to add an wired AP to your main router - which should increase your speed ?????

    If that is the case just get rid of your WDS connection setup - set mode as ACCESS POINT. Use same SSID and encryption/password on both, and roaming should work.
  7. i1135t

    i1135t Network Guru Member

    I think they are trying to run it to something similar I have setup. I have my main router(tomato) + AP(DDWRT) both running wireless, but not connected through WDS, but through cat5 cable. My AP is setup as an access point only, but given the same wireless settings as my main router, except my AP is on a separate channel that doesn't overlap(1,6, or 11). No WDS is configured as I wanted to setup a Distributed System without the reduced speed throughput offered by WDS. I tested it and works fine when moving from the wireless AP(DDWRT) to the other(tomato) by downloading a huge file from a laptop and physically changing locations. There were no interruptions during the download so I assume it was working as I wanted. I am no wireless expert, but I assume that having to switch channels only should not momentarily drop your connection right? Or should it?
  8. lanmtl

    lanmtl Addicted to LI Member

    I may be wrong but I'm almost positive that 802.11x doesn't support roaming: comms have to be interrupted when switching to a different AP's signal even if it's the same SSID, channel and everything
  9. Relax Preppy

    Relax Preppy Addicted to LI Member

    thanks guys... setting both devices to AP mode and operating on ch1 & 6 worked!! i was trying every combination of wireless mode except for AP
  10. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    There's confusion firstly because there have been several posts where the poster is requesting information on how to add AP's but keeps mentioning WDS, which of course is nothing to do with wired AP's - and secondly people keep referring to AP's as routers.

    OK, have fun.

    BTW - I have several sites with 25+ AP's all with same SSID and encryption, but since they are located in the same building they are interleaved across 4 channels 1,5,9,13. Nevertheless, a connection (IPTV for instance) begun on any AP can be continued as I walk through the building and hands over to each AP seamlessly. A TV connection does not hiccup because of the buffering, but you can sometimes notice a brief pause in a download. Remember, the PC already has an IP lease and does not need to renegotiate DHCP.
  11. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    This is interesting as i'm getting ready (or was) to setup a WDS. However, my whole house is wired for ethernet in every room except the dining room. All of the connections are connected to a D-Link 8 port switch (2 of them).

    My plan was to put a second router to extend the wireless network via WDS in my sons room under his bed (which is 2 levels up and on the complete other side of the house.)

    However, there is an ethernet connection directly under his bed as well. Theoretically I could just setup an access point just like this and not worry about the bandwidth issue (which would be for me as I stream HD movies via AppleTV via wireless.

    I guess we should lay out the pros and cons of each. :biggrin: Anyone? :wink:
  12. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I would go for the AP every time over WDS. And if there is a choice, I would also use cable in preference to wireless. It's always faster and more reliable than wireless.
  13. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    Oh, I know wired is better than wireless but I have a few devices that are just better on wireless...macbooks, laptops, iphones, etc. :biggrin:

    so is how he described it above how it should be setup? Both routers should be identical except channel? Should the one in the bedroom have WAN disabled?
  14. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Yes, i1135t described it just fine - disable the WAN and DHCP. Set as an AP if you are wiring it and run a cable from any of the LAN switch ports on the AP to any LAN switch port on the router. Set wireless the same security and SSID. The AP needs a different IP address. I don't think you'll have any problems.
  15. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    Does the second router need a different IP? for example?
  16. Bill Tuttle

    Bill Tuttle Guest

    This is exactly what I'm trying to setup. Sounds great. One question - how is this physically wired? Is the AP plugged into the main router's lan port? Are they both plugged into a switch? Thanks!
  17. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    I finally had a chance to get this setup last night after being tied up with side work.

    It works great. I am using 2 TM routers with Teddy bears newest 42 version. I tested it last night and it seemed to work great.

    TeddyBears mod has a check box to "use Wan port for Lan" which I checked so my ethernet cable is plugged into it. If you aren't using it, plug it in to the Lan port.
  18. Dent

    Dent LI Guru Member

    So with this set up you must put each router on a separate channel for the roaming to work? What happens or what is the disadvantage if both the routers had the same channel?
  19. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    interference really. Mine are on 1 and 3. seems great but i will keep this thread updated.
  20. Dent

    Dent LI Guru Member

    But when I am using WDS, I have both routers set to the same channel as per the polarcloud.com FAQ. Is this not optimal? Should they be on different channels. Everything seems to work though.
  21. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    right, this isn't WDS. I need the throughput that this setup provides and WDS does not. :wink:
  22. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    I finished this setup last night. I added another router just because I can..:biggrin:

    I now have 3 total in my setup. All using a different Tomato based firmware and different hardware combinations. They are seperated out throughout the house (~3500 Sq Ft.) I never really had a problem I guess but occasionally, my iphone would connect to the neighbors network when I was upstairs...lol Of course, I didn't want this and because my house has Ethernet bascially in every room that would need it, I decided to play with all my routers...:)

    I have:
    1 GSv2.1 running Victek Non-ND as the main router of the house.
    1 Gv3 running Victek Non-ND connected to my network via a Dlink 8port GB switch
    1 TM running Teddy_Bear ND running as a repeater connected to my network via a Dlink 8port GB switch

    I have excellent coverage even across the street....lol I only did this because I can and wanted to try different things out. Very easy to setup and the throughput is the same for HD Video streaming.

    One intersting piece of information in all of this. The one AppleTV is wireless and is farthest away from the TM router. The main router is directly below it. However, it would ALWAYS want to connect to the TM router and not the main one even though the main one had a better connection (according to the Signal meter in tomato).

    I thought that was interesting and could only explain it being because the TM had the ND driver? No problem, just thought I would share.
  23. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Interesting. I had a guy using an Apple laptop, it would almost always connect to just about the weakest AP it could find. I was always getting him complaining. I even put an AP outside his apartment, it didn't make much difference. I tried SMC, Zyxel, D-Link AP's to see if it helped. No difference. Luckily, he moved out.

    I hate Apple wireless implementation.
  24. ladysman

    ladysman LI Guru Member

    I should update this.:biggrin:
    The main router is now an Asus RT-N16. :wink:

    Everything else is the same except on the TM, I put the 7db antennas just because I had them.

    Also, to prevent the Apple TV from connecting to the main router, I removed the Mac address from the filter of the other 2 routers. Honestly though, it doesn't look like an issue now with the Asus as it loves the N wireless. I added the Mac's back into the 2 repeaters and it wouldn't connect to eitehr of them but i'm still checking on it everytime I go home.

    My wife's new W7 laptop on a 5100 card (AGN) always connects to the Asus as well.
  25. QSxx

    QSxx LI Guru Member

    A quickie for Toastman :) - since he's the expert here for this kind of setup...

    Could you specify in greater detail how exactly did you setup APs... what to disable, what to manually specify... stuff like that (i'm speaking of services like DHCP, Wireless filtering and such on APs)

    THX :)
  26. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Mmmm OK.

    Well, firstly, on AP's - all wired, obviously, mine go back to 16 port switches at various levels in the buildings. These are wired back to router in power rooms. AP's have WLAN and DHCP disabled, DHCP is done by the main router downstairs.

    Enable wireless, and set to AP mode, mixed "B" and "G" to allow use by most PC's. [I'm only talking about "B" and "G" modes here, because a) "N" AP's are pretty expensive and b) If used on 2.4GHz band, they jam each other to the point where they quickly become unuseable, making use of 5GHz pretty much the only way to go. They can also completely wipe out local B/G AP's on most of the 2.4GHz band].

    Try to keep them on different channels, you really only have a choice of 1,6,11 - they must be separated with 4 channels in between.

    Wireless restriction can be enabled to keep someone out of a particular AP, but isn't really of much use when you have several AP's, it will be a complete nightmare trying to keep lists up to date. Instead, use Access Restrictions on the main router to prevent access to the web. Set up rules, "Allow these MAC addresses" / All Day, Every Day, Normal Access Restriction / applies to "All Except" and add MAC addresses of the PC's you want to allow access to the web.

    I leave the choice of wireless encryption to you. In residential setups, this is of no use at all, because residents just give the access code to each other. For purposes of hiding content of packets and keeping out the odd pirate, I use WEP. If you want users to roam between AP's with the least amount of hiccups, set the same SSID and access code on all AP's.

    That's about it, I think. In essence, once set up, the AP's take care of themselves. Anything important is changed on the main router.
  27. QSxx

    QSxx LI Guru Member

    Mirrored your setup and it works like charm :)

    Only change is (since I have lot's of tech savvy neighbours) WPA2 Personal with AES and 64char key... (that should keep 'em out)

    Also, channels 1,6 and 11 are too crowded so i opted for 3 and 8.

  28. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Be careful with using those odd channels.

    If you used 1,6, and 11 - then whenever another AP transmits, yours will wait until it has finished, to avoid interference. And they will do the same. However, if you put your AP on another channel, it will usually no longer detect the other AP's as valid wifi signals, it will consider them as just noise, and will transmit at the same time as they do, (and vice versa). They will now be able to interfere with each other. So this may cause many dropped packets and be counter-productive.

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