1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

wireless satelite dish link

Discussion in 'Networking Issues' started by t4thfavor, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    Ok, If i feel motivated
    for the next few days i am going to try to establish a wireless link to a neighbors house around 2miles away. thats the easy part
    as i said before, i am an intern = i make squat(mostly)
    so i am going to do it with a couple of dish antennas scavenged from my dads garage. lol i know hillarious....

    i have found a few sites that have done stuff like this..

    http://www.wwc.edu/~frohro/Airport/Primestar/Primestar.html
    http://www5.cs.cornell.edu/~eckstrom/802.11a/primestar/
    http://www.interline.pl/portal/modules/articles/article.php?id=11

    but any other interesting stuff would be appreciated.
    the link is in central Michigan. and will most likely have a poor LOS due to trees. i surveyed my woods and found a few makeshift telephone poles that have recently fallen due to soft ground and wind/snow. the "poles" are around 70 or so feet tall. - the amount they need to be buried i would say around 60 some feet.These will already have power on them due to the large light i have to put up for my fiances "piece of mind" (im not that addicted).


    i will photograph all of this stuff as it happens (if) and post it up here. wish me luck and please help me out

    -t4thfavor
     
  2. Couledouce

    Couledouce Network Guru Member

    Go for it!
     
  3. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    great, moral support just what i needed......


    nothing else???
     
  4. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    thsi sound like it might work.you could buy some really big old/used dishes off of ebay.
     
  5. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    in the past my dad has had about 4 different satellite dishes, guess what he still has 3 of them... and i can steal at least 2 so im good.

    i dont think i will have to actually buy anything. aside from a few connectors and maybe some cable.

    i plan to put the ap in a weather proof box on the pole.
    so i wont need much coax. just cat5 that i have 1kilofoot of
     
  6. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    but at every 100 meters of ethernet and you loose speed. i would use more coax cable over ethernet


    -just my 2 cent :D
     
  7. Disman_ca

    Disman_ca Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    In the UK a group called the Kingsbridge Link (http://www.kingsbridgelink.co.uk/) is boasting 3Mbps over 8.5km. They used to have a wireless mech adminitration system but for some reason removed it. It was sweet as you entered all the config info of your mesh and it layed out your mesh and generated configuration scripts to run on each router (node). If you are into the technical side of wireless antenas (I'm not), they have a link to a wireless link calculator (http://my.athenet.net/~multiplx/cgi-bin/wireless.main.cgi. I did toy with the idea of using my satellite dishes for the same reason but a much shorter distance of 700 feet.
     
  8. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    Highest Transmitted Frequency : 2.467000 GHz (2467.000000 MHz)
    Wavelength : 0.1215 meters (12.1521 centimeters)
    : 0.3987 feet (4.7843 inches)
    Transmitter RF Power Output : 26.990 dBm (500.035 milliWatts)
    : -3.010 dBW (0.500 Watts)
    : -33.010 dBk (0.00050 kiloWatts)
    Transmitter Transmission Line Type : Times Microwave LMR-400
    Transmitter Line Length : 4.57 meters (15.00 feet)
    Transmitter Line Loss Specification : 22.03 dB/100-meters (6.72 dB/100-feet)
    Calculated Transmitter Line Loss : 1.01 dB (0.22 dB/meter) (0.07 dB/foot)
    Transmitter Line Efficiency : 79.30 % (acceptable line loss)
    Total Transmitter Connector Loss : 0.12 dB through 2 connectors
    Transmitter Line Miscellaneous Loss : 0.00 dB
    Total Transmitter Line Loss : 1.13 dB
    Transmitter Path Miscellaneous Losses : 0.00 dB
    Transmitter Miscellaneous Gain : 0.00 dB
    Transmitter Antenna Peak Gain : 24.00 dBi (21.85 dBd)
    Transmitter Antenna Radome Loss : 0.00 dB
    Transmitter Antenna 3 dB Beamwidth : 10.35 °
    Total RF Input Power to the Antenna : 25.86 dBm (385.42 milliWatts)
    FCC Part 15.247 Allowed RF Input Power to Antenna : 24.00 dBm (251.19 milliWatts)
    Transmitter Antenna Height : 14.00 meters (45.93 feet) AGL
    Transmitter Antenna Site Elevation : 180.00 meters (590.55 feet) AMSL
    Overall Transmitter Antenna Height : 194.00 meters (636.48 feet) AMSL
    Transmitter Distance to the Radio Horizon : 15.43 kilometers (9.59 miles)
    Transmitter to Receiver Antenna Mechanical Tilt : +0.0294 ° (UPWARD)

    Receiver Transmission Line Type : Times Microwave LMR-400
    Receiver Line Length : 4.57 meters (15.00 feet)
    Receiver Line Loss Specification : 22.03 dB/100-meters (6.72 dB/100-feet)
    Calculated Receiver Line Loss : 1.01 dB (0.22 dB/meter) (0.07 dB/foot)
    Receiver Line Efficiency : 79.30 % (acceptable line loss)
    Total Receiver Connector Loss : 0.12 dB through 2 connectors
    Receiver Line Miscellaneous Loss : 0.00 dB
    Total Receiver Line Loss : 1.13 dB
    Receiver Miscellaneous Gain : 13.00 dB
    Receiver Antenna Peak Gain : 24.00 dBi (21.85 dBd)
    Receiver Antenna Radome Loss : 0.00 dB
    Receiver Antenna 3 dB Beamwidth : 10.35 °
    Receiver Antenna Height : 19.00 meters (62.34 feet) AGL
    Receiver Antenna Site Elevation : 186.00 meters (610.24 feet) AMSL
    Overall Receiver Antenna Height : 205.00 meters (672.58 feet) AMSL
    Receiver Distance to the Radio Horizon : 17.97 kilometers (11.17 miles)
    Receiver to Transmitter Antenna Mechanical Tilt : -0.0968 ° (DOWNWARD)


    Vertical Space Diversity Antenna Height : 0.00 meters (0.00 feet) AGL
    Diversity Antenna Gain : 0.00 dBi (-2.15 dBd)
    Calculated Diversity Antenna Line Loss : 0.00 dB (0.22 dB/meter) (0.07 dB/foot)
    Diversity Line Miscellaneous Loss : 0.00 dB
    Overall Diversity Receiver Antenna Height : 205.00 meters (672.58 feet) AMSL

    Transmitter Site Name : home
    Transmitter Site Latitude : 0.000000 (00° 00' 0.00")
    Transmitter Site Longitude : 0.000000 (000° 00' 0.00")
    Receiver Site Name : there
    Receiver Site Latitude : 0.000000 (00° 00' 0.00")
    Receiver Site Longitude : 0.000000 (000° 00' 0.00")
    Azimuth From Transmitter Site to Receiver Site : Not Applicable ° East of true North
    Azimuth From Receiver Site to Transmitter Site : Not Applicable ° East of true North
    Total Path Distance : 10.00 kilometers (6.21 miles)

    Free Space Path Loss : 120.29 dB
    Estimated Urban Area Path Loss : 154.08 dB
    Total Worst Case Precipitation Loss : 0.000 dB
    Total Water Vapor Loss : 0.000 dB
    Total Oxygen Loss : 0.060 dB
    Total System Free Space Path Loss : 120.35 dB
    Total System Urban Area Path loss : 154.14 dB

    Peak Effective Isotropic Radiated Power (EIRP) : 49.859 dBm (96805.493 milliWatts)
    : 19.859 dBW (96.805 Watts)
    : -10.141 dBk (0.09681 kiloWatts)
    Unfaded Free Space Received Carrier Power Level : -34.62 dBm (4154.18 µV)
    Unfaded Urban Area Received Carrier Power Level : -68.41 dBm (84.92 µV)
    Receiver Threshold (sensitivity) : -90.00 dBm (7.07 µV)

    Thermal Noise Free Space Fade Margin : 55.38 dB (Urban : 21.59 dB)
    Diversity Thermal Noise Free Space Fade Margin : 55.38 dB (Urban : 21.59 dB)
    Ideal Thermal Noise Fade Margin for This Climate : 7.71 dB
    Dispersive Free Space Fade Margin : 0.00 dB (Urban : 0.00 dB)
    External Interference Free Space Fade Margin : 0.00 dB (Urban : 0.00 dB)
    Adj. Channel Interference Free Space Fade Margin : 0.00 dB (Urban : 0.00 dB)
    Composite Free Space Fade Margin : 55.38 dB (Urban : 21.59 dB)

    Dense, Dry, In-Leaf Temperate Climate Foliage Loss : 0.50 dB/meter (0.15 dB/foot) worst case
    Estimated Attenuation Due to Precipitation : 0.000 dB/km (0.000 dB/mi) (0.0 mm/hour)
    Estimated Attenuation Due to Water Vapor : 0.000 dB/km (0.000 dB/mi) 7.5 gm/m3
    Estimated Attenuation Due to Oxygen Loss : 0.006 dB/kilometer (0.004 dB/mile)
    Absolute Minimum Antenna Height for Either Antenna : 11.92 meters (39.12 feet)

    One Way - No Spaced Vertical Antenna Diversity
    Annual Free Space Multipath Reliability Estimate : 99.99999957 % (Urban : 99.99897580 %)
    Annual Free Space Multipath Outage : 0.03 seconds (Urban : 1.24 minutes)
    Worst Month Free Space Multipath Outage : 0.01 seconds (Urban : 26.63 seconds)
    Annual Free Space Severely Errored Seconds : 0.03 (Urban : 74.14)
    Worst Month Free Space Severely Errored Seconds : 0.01 (Urban : 26.63)

    One Way - With Spaced Vertical Antenna Diversity
    Vertical Spacing for Diversity Antennas : 32.54 meters (106.76 feet) (calculated)
    Free Space Diversity Improvement Factor : 109393.80 (will improve link reliability)
    Urban Area Diversity Improvement Factor : 45.71 (will improve link reliability)
    Annual Free Space Multipath Reliability Estimate : 100.00000000 % (Urban : 99.99997759 %)
    Annual Free Space Multipath Outage : 0.00 seconds (Urban : 1.62 seconds)
    Worst Month Free Space Multipath Outage : 0.00 seconds (Urban : 0.58 seconds)
    Annual Free Space Severely Errored Seconds : 0.00 (Urban : 1.62)
    Worst Month Free Space Severely Errored Seconds : 0.00 (Urban : 0.58)

    Effective Earth Radius (K Factor) : 4/3
    Climate Factor : 1.00
    Urban Environment Factor : Rural Country Side - Quasi Open
    Terrain Roughness (std. dev. of elevations) : 4.57 meters (15.00 feet)
    Average Annual Temperature : 8.00 ° C (46.40 ° F)
    Sea Level Corrected Atmospheric Pressure : Not Applicable millibars
    Saturation Vapor Pressure : Not Applicable millibars
    Partial Vapor Pressure : Not Applicable millibars
    Index of Refraction : Not Applicable N units
    Maximum Free Space Wave Communications Distance : 33.40 kilometers (20.75 miles)
    Receiver Site Grazing Angle : -0.03 °

    Estimated RF Power Density Below the Radiating Antenna : 0.010 mW/cm2
    FCC OET Bulletin #65 Maximum Permissible Exposure : 1.00 mW/cm2
    Distance to RF Safety Compliance From Transmit Antenna : 1.42 meters (4.66 feet)


    this is what i got from the calc. im sure i dont have it exactly correct.
     
  9. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    wow that is crazy t4thfavor. dont stand infront of the dish while it is operating. i heard that this can harm you. i dont know could be a myth.
     
  10. Jeffrccar

    Jeffrccar Network Guru Member

    This topic becomes very interesting to read about.
    I have more links on Sat dishes:
    Antennas and Wireless Networking (Antennas Enhance WLAN Security)
    http://www.trevormarshall.com/byte_articles/byte1.htm

    A Bi-Quad Feed for Primestar Dishes http://www.trevormarshall.com/biquad.htm
    Surplus Primestar Dish http://www.wwc.edu/~frohro/Airport/Primestar/Primestar.html
    Mark LaPierre's 1100ft link through forest canopy http://www.trevormarshall.com/lapierre.htm
    Koen Weijand's page on using an 18inch dish and feed details http://www.weijand.nl/wifi/
     
  11. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    much appreciated the tree one is about what i have
     
  12. oopsibrokeit

    oopsibrokeit Network Guru Member

  13. Morpheus

    Morpheus Network Guru Member

    And a good thing abut being a Radio ham in the UK We can use up to 400watts on 2.4Ghz :dancing:
     
  14. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    i think i will move to the UK
     
  15. Morpheus

    Morpheus Network Guru Member


    But you will need a Radio Ham License. I think in the U.S.A you can run up to 800watts to 1Kw on 2.4 GHz with a Radio Ham License 8)
     
  16. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    in that case i think i will stay in the usa
     
  17. Morpheus

    Morpheus Network Guru Member

  18. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    not like i will try a cantenna or a dish for wireless. though it would be cool to make a dish for my wireless netowork and aim it at my neighbors house and blow his wireless network out of the water.
     
  19. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    if you ran 1kw through a dish you could point it at your neighbors cat and cook him from 20 yards.

    my dad has the highest class ham license in the states but i cant get him motivated to get me microwave gear, something about laws and such...
     
  20. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    i know that you canot zap people with it.
     
  21. windsurfer

    windsurfer Network Guru Member

    I own a vacation home in an area where 28.8 modem or satelite is the only option for internet. There is DSL across the valley where one of my friends lives but that is about 3/4 of a mile line of sight from my house. We have been playing with different antenna systems.

    My first try was with a can antenna on one end and a WAP11 on the other. The can antenna was connected to an Orinoco card in my laptop. I could see the WAP11 but there was not enough siganl to log onto it. The Orinoco requires -92db of signal to get connected. If we had added a can antenna to the wap11 there would have been no problem connecting.

    Since that time I have built about 15 different antenna. Some were my own design but many of them came from ideas I had seen on the internet. Here are a few things that I have learned.

    1. A typical can antenna is good to about 12db.
    2. The best can antenna I have measured is about 16db.
    3. The best Yaggi I could build was only about 12db or less.
    4 A satelite dish with a can antenna feed will get you around 25db.
    5. There is a better way than running expensive RF cable from your dish to an access point.

    Here is a shot of my first dish antenna:
    http://windsurf.mediaforte.com/dish_can.jpg

    Here is a shot where it is connected to a very old laptop. This system has about 20db more gain than I really need at 3/4 of a mile. The orange cable coming out of the laptop went inside the house to another WRT54G. The laptop was runnig in Internet Sharing Mode and this setup download XP SP2 over the wireless in the house in less than 10 minutes with out errors.

    http://windsurf.mediaforte.com/dish_can1.jpg
    Here is a shot of a can antenna using a USB stick as the sensor.
    http://windsurf.mediaforte.com/USBcan.jpg
    Here is another shot of the same can from the front.
    http://windsurf.mediaforte.com/USBcan1.jpg

    There are some guys in Newzeland that came up with the USB radio idea.
    http://www.usbwifi.orcon.net.nz/

    I can connect at 3/4 of a mile to a WRT54G on one end and the can with the USB stick on the other. The can is 4 inches in diameter. The WRT54G has nothing but its standard antenna.

    Building a good antenna does not have to be expensive.

    Thanks

    Wilton
     
  22. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    did you also know that your microwave oven(if older) is at 2.4ghz
    and around a kilowatt?

    yes you can look into it.
    why do you think there is laws about ow close people can be to an antenna.

    if a bird lands on the focal point of a 20 watt2.4ghz dish it will die if it stays too long

    i know it sounds jacked up but its true.
     
  23. windsurfer

    windsurfer Network Guru Member

    Yes I did know that a microwave oven ran at 2.4Ghz. If you could modulate that it would make a great driver for an antenna system. The birds would probably just drop out of the air.

    Wilton
     
  24. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    hehe :) but thats wrong @ the same time
     
  25. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    i have 2 wusb54gv4's and i want to use them at the ends of my links (possibly) does anyone know where i can get crazy long usb cables without spending all of my loot.
    i have 2 ap's but i would rather use the usb's becasuse they are less useful to me ( i can live without them)

    also that is mega sweet (windsurfer's dish) did it work good? was it fairly directional? and where did you get that sweet dish at? its not primestar.


    also does anyone know about Directwave? i have an old directwave system that i can use but i dont know anything about it.

    frequency/txpower, compatibility?
    anything
     
  26. windsurfer

    windsurfer Network Guru Member

    The USB systems I have seen have used 10' cables connected together with the joints covered to make them water proof. These cables are now being made in China and you should be able to get them for $2 or $3 each. Do some searching on the internet or check your local "White Box" computer store.

    The dish in the picture above is a 1.6Ghz satelite dish. It is made of plastic and has some type of metal coating. It can be taken apart and the dish portion would fit in a large breifcase. The satelite receiver fit in the center so we removed it and replaced it with a metal mounting bracket from another dish. A hole was drilled just off center but I still had to do two elbows to make the can end up in the center of the dish.

    Pointing these things is hard. Pointing an off center dish would be much much harder. I have a plastic pipe with out any elbows that I place in the hole and I look through it from the back to sight the dish. I then replace it with the pipe that holds the can. This works good. I have heard of people using laser pointers but at 3/4 of a mile seeing the spot is impossible.

    At 3/4 of a mile the dish is very directional. If the outside rim of the dish is much more that a 1/4 of an inch one direction or the other you start to loose signal.

    One more comment about the USB radio cards and the big dish. I have had a hard time finding the focal point of the dish and getting it alligned correctly with the antenna in a USB radio. You almost have to open the USB radio and find the antenna so you can put a mark on the outside. On my Netgear you have to tear up the labels to do that. With the can design I know exactly where the focus point should be so I slide the USB card up and down until I get the best signal. The can design has less degrees of freedom so it is much easier to get setup correctly. Once you are done, you can measure 1.21 inches from the edge of the can up onto the USB stick. That should be the location of the antenna with out opening the case.

    I use Netstumbler for all my standard antenna measurements. Netstumbler does not work with the Netgear USB cards. This is a big disadvantage. I would like to hear from anyone who knows of a USB card that works with Netstumbler.

    Wilton
     
  27. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    a great usb wireless adapter is the d-link g120 this baby works great. pics up all the wireless networks around ym house. and works wit netstumbler. i have 4 of the dlink usb adapters
     
  28. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    the WUSB54Gv4 is awesome its kinda bog but it has a swivel antenna and can be remotely mounted on the top of my car so also it works with netstumbler and it actually gets a much better sig than my orinoco gold and my buffalo.

    i think it is becasue of placement.
     
  29. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    the dwl-g120 fits good on my bicycle it also works good wit network stumbler. one more year till i get my car

    j/k on putting the dwl-g120 on my bike :D
     
  30. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    this past week has been a nightmare. for me and my project

    i had a lot of car trouble starting with the alternator and the serpentine belt going up in smoke followed by needing new front y needing tires, followed by a tie rod finished out by a trade in on a new car.
    parts 630$ + new car 14,000$ total of 14,630$ = im broke

    so the farthest i have gotten is yanking one of the big tree poles out of the woods with 500' of 5/16" chain and an old ford tractor. ill post pics if anyone wants to see me almost die.

    next the good ol michigan weather decides to snow for 45hours straight. no stopping. for a total acumulation of 1' of snow and a lot of standing water
    yeah and to think it was 85 degrees last week... damn this state.

    i re-contracted the poison ivy and now am quite reluctant to set foot in the woods ever again. i guess i will never grow up

    next phase is either get the next tree or dig the hole one of the two..

    neither will be that much fun...
    p.s. Does anyone care...?
    -chance
     
  31. windsurfer

    windsurfer Network Guru Member

    I am interested. We have been working on a new garage/shop and I pulled the electrical wires through some poison oak without knowing it. The oil got on my hands and I rubbed my forhead. My eyes swelled shut. I know how you feel.
     
  32. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    yeah i thnk that this is a interesting project
     
  33. t4thfavor

    t4thfavor Network Guru Member

    no pics yet brcause my camera battery died.
    im glad someone shares my pain. thanks for thinking that this is interesting i wouldnt want to bore anyone.
    ivy is almost gone (again) snow is gone (again) tree is still where i left it. i have a new (and working) car and things are good.
    i will post them pics when i get some batteries since they couldnt figure out how to use the usb as power (duh).
    -chance
     
  34. jagboy

    jagboy Network Guru Member

    i icant wait to see some pictures. i might do something like this myself
     

Share This Page