A month with Shibby mod

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by eahm, Nov 13, 2011.

  1. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    Just wanted to say this mod is super stable, I am switching all my customers to Shibby and I am extremely pleased with it. I've been using it for a month on my E4200 and I have never had one single problem. I modified at least one setting each section, it never resets, never forget nor need to reconfigure anything. The WiFi is also very stable, I am streaming 720p Blu-rays every day on my Boxee Box 23 feet away (with an "American wall" on its way), it doesn't stop nor stop to load the buffer, ever.
    Also one of the best thing I love about this mod is that I can change almost everything and I don't need to restart the router to reload the anti-ads script, other mods need to be restarted.

    Thanks Shibby and all the other modders that made this possible.

    I've always used Victek but I don't trust the 9007 for business, too many comments about problems.
    xips_ likes this.
  2. shibby20

    shibby20 Network Guru Member

    this is very nice. thank you :)
    eahm likes this.
  3. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    Will be giving it a run now. Honestly I am getting very confused with all the versions out there of Tomato. Getting hard to keep track of who is who in the zoo.....
  4. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    If I delete a wireless filter rule the router locks up, sorta. I can still access the internet I just can't access the router either wirelessly or wired. The router works just can't access it.
  5. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

  6. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member


    Yep. Since they all are using "parts" of each others maybe you can tell me when you try Shibby's mod as compared to Toastman's latest, which parts are causing possible issues? Shibby's parts? Toastman's parts? Teaman's parts? Or maybe which wireless driver is actually "out there" in current versions since Toastman's latest version went back to a previous version with previous wireless drivers?
  7. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    WDS is usually a bit slower then wireless ethernet bridge mode. Normal. With the latest Shibby mod WDS noticably slower than bridge mode. I know that some of the cores had issues with WDS. Not sure which core you are at Shibby.
  8. xtacydima

    xtacydima LI Guru Member

    I wonder how accurate that chart is, for example, I played with dualwan, it does have QoS bandwidth limiter as I am sure I recall seeing it, just one quick offhand observation.

    I do agree, Tomato started out strong as it was based off 1 build, 1 developer, if this goes spiraling out to too many people with too many builds it would not be a positive direction that Tomato is headed into, just my opinion.

    I would like to see all the developers just get together and make an ultimate single build.
    Elfew likes this.
  9. clarknova

    clarknova Networkin' Nut Member

    I have to agree with that. I like the fact that there are many people working on many features, but I think there is merit to the idea of a project leader gathering the most stable builds with the best features into a sort of "Master Repository". I think tomatousb.org has served this purpose well, but I'm not sure it has kept up lately, as there are some great features that haven't filtered up to this site, such as vlans, dual-WAN, MLPPP, QoS improvments, etc. Updated hardware support is another problem, as there is work being done, but the HCL on tomatousb.org is beginning to look stale.
  10. jsmiddleton4

    jsmiddleton4 Network Guru Member

    A combine build is almost what Toastman's are. Not quite but close. What i appreciate is different builds along the complicated continuum instead of having one huge file. I don't want VLAN, No-CAT, VPN, etc.

    Shibby's stuff is in Toastman's builds.

    Which is again why I say its hard to evaluate one build vs another. Too many variables to make clear conclusions.
  11. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    We do definitely need a stable "base" build with the most commonly used ROUTER features in it. Up to now that has been provided by the TomatoUSB/RT builds. We still have reasonably up to date code from Fedor (Teddy Bear), who posted updates recently, even thought there's no "official" build. And by the way, just to keep you informed, I have spoken with Fedor and he is NOT coming back to work on Tomato.

    I mention this because all those of you who have done nothing but apply pressure and demands have finally managed to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

    As for the other stuff. Well, it's easy to make these suggestions but when you think it through, it ain't gonna happen. Nor is it desirable. I agree with jsmiddleton4 - it's nice to have a choice.

    Whoever the project leader is, he has to make some pretty tough decisions. These are little plastic router boxes, with very limited resources. You can't just keep adding stuff without removing something else. It just isn't possible. Who will say what is important enough to be included or left out? That is always down to an individual's own personal opinion. For example, I don't want to put Transmission in my builds, as I don't consider that to be a router function. I am a huge torrent downloader and the router simply can't cope with what I do without becoming sluggish in it's basic function of routing. It's also a pretty useless NAS, except for occasional use. Those are my own personal opinions, and I don't force them on others. But monitoring features are not only useful but necessary, and I do consider those to be a useful addition to the router.

    Others may disagree with all of my opinions, and that's only right. But please don't try to force your own opinions down the throats of others.

    So if we have a decision to make over whether to include a Torrent Client, which one should be used, what version, what should the interface look like, what options should be enabled? Should it be allowed to use all of the router's resources and leave it unable to route? How many resource hogging applications should be put onto the router? What will happen and who will take the blame when people complain that with them all enabled, the router is slow and unstable?

    I expect web pages to open in less than a second or two. Others seem to be happy with 4 to 10 seconds. Everyone's opinion will be different and still not everybody will be happy. Then there's a Client Monitor. Which monitor do we use, there are several available. What should the graphs look like (e.g. Tomato style or Gargoyle style) ? Three different people may have quite different implementations, all with their own benefits and disadvantages. Only one can be used. And so we keep adding more and more stuff that tries to please everyone but cannot.

    At the end of the day - we end up with DD-WRT.

    How I feel is this - you have several contributors all making builds - they make them how they want them - but may consider input from the forums. They will happily continue to do their work and share it - free of charge, and support it - again free of charge. But if you try to limit them, limit their creativity - by applying to a central "build" only one of the 3 modders different contributions can be used. Now two out of the three modders will feel disgruntled (lovely word, that) and may even stop working on the project or simply stop sharing it and disappear. I've seen it happen time and time again.

    Try to imagine a world where it was decided that only one model of car should be made, and it should incorporate all of the features from the 1,000+ models around presently. How cluttered, cumbersome it would look. Would it have a wooden steering wheel or a plastic one? Plastic, cloth, or leather seats? Crossply tyres? You're stuck with what you get. A dinosaur. You end up walking instead.

    Should we burn all the books in the world, and have only one gigantic "approved" text with everything in it?

    I believe in CHOICE.

    We all make these builds for our own use. Obviously that's so, there's no other reason to spend thousands of hours on the project. It's a HOBBY. We get pleasure out of sharing them. If people don't like any of the modders offerings, then nobody is being forced to use them. You can flash them, free of charge, evaluate, then discard them at your leisure. You have support and bugfixes in hours or days instead of several months. You do not get this level of support from any commercial manufacturer I know of - and I've worked for many of them. The source code is freely available on the repository for anyone to use, and make his own selection. He's now got another version to publish that may make someone's day.

    Would you then prevent him from sharing it if he so desires?

    One other thing for you all to think about. Look at TomatoUSB. A whole forum mostly full of with demands and complaints. Anyone noticed there are no developers there any more? They've all left, and just a few stragglers remain.

    Ever wonder why?
  12. ppsun

    ppsun Networkin' Nut Member

    IMHO, I like having the variety of builds that theses guys churn out. I think, for basic users, the builds are mostly the same. But to the more adventurous, it comes down to deciding which build has most of the exotic features that they need.

    There's only 8MB in my E300o, so the decision is down to me to choose which build suits me best. And if I need an unusual combo of features that do not exist in all the current builds; I can PM these guys. I am sure they can work something out, if it doesn't cost them a big chunk of extra effort.

    But after saying that, it would be nice to have a regularly updated table of features for all the existing builds. Example: Shibby's table is a good start.
  13. clarknova

    clarknova Networkin' Nut Member

    I think I was too hasty with my last post. I obviously quoted xtacydima and said that I agree that I "would like to see all the developers just get together and make an ultimate single build", but that's definitely not what I meant.

    I'm definitely not against choice, and I don't mean to advocate for a single 'master build'. In fact I like that we have multiple players building multiple flavours. The only complaint I have now, as a user that is just getting familiar with the current landscape, is quality control. For example, how do I know if the vlan functionality in Shibby's builds is as good or better than the comparable features in Toastman's builds; is it the same code? What wireless driver is Teddybear using; does is perform as well as the driver in Victek's? Is one better for a certain task, and the other for another?

    On one end of the marketing spectrum we have Jonathan Zarate and his original Tomato build. It's simple, stable, and basically predictable. If your hardware is compatible and you don't need any fancy features (is USB fancy?), it's an easy choice.

    On the other end of the marketing spectrum, you have names that are far less known outside these forums, pumping out experimental builds with support for multi-BSSID, new hardware, dual-WAN, you-name-it. These guys are pioneers, advancing the state of the art and keeping the Tomatoes fresh, but these builds are not exactly a new user's first stop; they're not out-there visible like polarcloud.com, nor should they be, as an unsuspecting noob might find himself embittered on the frustration of unwittingly living on the cutting edge.

    Somewhere in between these two extremes is the mainstream. This is the middle of the road, travelled by 80% of the population. This is the place you go when plain old Tomato just doesn't cut it, either because the feature-set is too limiting, or maybe the HCL has't kept up with your taste in hardware. People in this category still want stability in their router, but they're looking for the next generation. They might want an extra feature or two, like they really need decent QoS, or they just want to print to their USB printer from the network.

    For the majority in this last group, the feature matrix on wikipedia is interesting, but too confusing. Why is the dual-WAN Tomato page in Chinese? Why does every line in that table list a different number of max connections when every Tomato build I've tried allows me to change that number anyway? Why do some mods support my hardware and others don't?

    Let the trailblazers blaze trails, but I still have to cast my vote for some kind of a central, recognized clearing-house that helps users to sort builds and features, and apply meaningful labels like 'stable', 'beta' and 'experimental'. This would cut out a lot of the work and confusion for the user, and hopefully help to coordinate and de-duplicate the efforts of the diverse community of developers as well.
  14. xtacydima

    xtacydima LI Guru Member

    I hope nobody misinterpreted my wording as being against having different choices for builds (writing is not always the same as speaking and a point can come off the wrong way), but you must admit (even for me I follow the forums here daily and read up on new implementations all the time) and even I get confused sometimes by all the different builds.

    I think clarknova summed better and more clearly the point I was trying to make. I prefer Tomato personally, and actually follow the hardware to buy routers based on whether or not they will be supported, for obvious reason.
  15. AMurderOfCrows

    AMurderOfCrows Network Guru Member

    as a tomato user since nearly the beginning, and a modded firmware user long before it, i have to say that the idea of an updated, unified base of Tomato is enticing. Knowing that no matter who's build i choose to install, i get the same awesome basic performance is incredibly valuable.

    but till that happens, we users need much more information. There should be a very easy to understand, well documented, and constantly updated wiki article on the various builds. certain features of the router should be an absolute given, regardless of what hardware is on the router. The best way to implement that sort of base standard is pretty much what you all have been doing so far....NoUSB builds, different kernel builds, etc.

    The problem isn't what you guys are doing. the problem is translating that information into an easy to understand chart. or maybe something more. something better.

    it's hard to ask the developers to maintain and update a wiki page, because they already do so much for us, as Toastman points out, for free.

    I'm totally someone who has trouble figuring out how to completely decipher tomato-K26USB-1.28.905xRAF-ML-MIPSR2-070V-AIO. it shouldn't take an hour of reading and hunting to figure out if a particular build is compatible with your hardware, and if it has certain features.

    This could easily be built in a database. We start with the hardware. Models, revisions, etc. once the hardware is known, options become more limited and streamlined. Checkboxes for features that you want, or for which developer you want. warning, notes, images, detailed instructions, support files. all in one location. a single place to host all the files in question.

    Someone needs to make TomatoWorld.info happen.
  16. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    Someone? If you wait for "someone" you'll never do anything. Let's do it. Once we buy the domain and we start something people will follow.
  17. shibby20

    shibby20 Network Guru Member

    Indeed @toast :)
  18. Gaius

    Gaius Networkin' Nut Member

    I have to agree with the OP. I've tried all the different versions people churn out and Shibby is the only one that has given me zero issues.
  19. shibby20

    shibby20 Network Guru Member

    release date of 083V - 05 Dec 2011 - well 51 days ago

    Uptime on my prime-router:
    eahm likes this.
  20. shibby20

    shibby20 Network Guru Member

    I can buy domain and give you hosting with mysql database. How want start and lead the project? ;)
  21. Gaius

    Gaius Networkin' Nut Member

    Shibby I have a perfect uptime using your mod since the day it was released as well. Thanks for the hard work.
  22. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    I wouldn't know what to do with a MySQL database, I don't program. I am offering though like you did, to buy a domain + hosting for whoever like to start this page/project. I don't have much time to dedicate primarily on this, I already have two IT companies and a baby coming :)

    You spent already too much time/money making a great mod, let us testers buy the hosting.
  23. AMurderOfCrows

    AMurderOfCrows Network Guru Member

    Agreed on having the benefactors of the firmware do the payback for the community.

    i have a hostgator account currently where i'm using wordpress as a base for multiple sites. I'm sure i can throw in another directory and do an install of whatever platform we want to use. This would be an interim thing, to see if the idea is viable. Think closed beta. Before we start building up the actual database though, i think it is in our best interest to design the rules for the database and validate as much information as we can prior. decide what kind of information goes in and how each table relates to each other table.

    Someone else can buy/maintain the domain. I'm still unemployed.

    I'm just beginning at this programming stuff, and i'm taking 16 credits this semester, so my time is pretty limited, but i'm more than willing to setup and provide access to a few people on my hosting if this actually takes off.
  24. FlashSWT

    FlashSWT Network Guru Member

    I like the train of thought here. I think that not having an "official" version released every month or so hurts the spread of Tomato. The general public will not venture into the forums to find the latest mod updates. They'll simply see that Tomato/TomatoUSB hasn't been updated in a year and think it is old/stale and look elsewhere for options. I think having fresh versions easily available would be beneficial to helping Tomato usage continue to grow.

    Of course this is a lot to ask. The authors of the various mods obviously create them because they need/want the options for themselves. The fact that so many share them and offer support to everyone else is awesome. I agree that trying to force these developers to limit their work to something ordered by others is counterproductive.

    I know there is already a lot of collaboration between developers but I'd love to see some sort of official/base build released in a more public way.

    As far as a website, don't we already have www.tomatousb.org for this? Or is TomatoUSB considered the name for Teddybear's mod only? I've always used TomatoUSB to refer to "beyond original Tomato" in general but maybe this has been my mistake.
  25. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Tomatousb.org, in my opinion, is the place for Teddy Bear's mod - which just happens to be the base for all the other current mods too. But really, other mods don't get much coverage on that website, and it isn't active now.

    Nobody wants to use that wikidot site because of the awful software it uses, and for some reason which we haven't been able to ascertain, it is often not reachable from several countries. It has been essentially abandoned since Teddy left, and is currently the home of most of the professional complainers and those who demand more stuff for free without contributing anything themselves.

    As far as the English Language is concerned, the main mod branches at the moment and the vpn, ad block, etc. are really supported best here on Linksysinfo.org - where it all started. I keep finding people on various forums around the globe, and even on tomatousb.org, that nobody replies to, when the same subject has been almost beaten to death here on linksysinfo :D

    Re. the base build. I agree it would be very nice to have one. However, wishes don't make it so. This is asking someone to devote certainly dozens of hours a week to the task, and he would need to be pretty skillful, as Teddy was, in trawling through the vast amount of code out there and quickly selecting, incorporating, and testing it in Tomato, before releasing to trusted testers and discarding it as unsuitable, as happened before. More importantly, he should be committed to keeping Tomato "lean" and fast and not be sidetracked by adding unnecessary features to it - while simultaneously trying to keep it updated when necessary to support things like IPv6. And all the time let's not forget about adding support for new models, which will usually involve weird wireless drivers, and so on. Shibby is the only one who's been doing that for a while and some new models are now able to use Tomato. Thanks Shibby!

    If I were to suggest that people used the latest git commits from Teddy, but revert the wireless driver to - that would be a relatively new and probably quite "stable" build for the latest RT style routers. But you can't just force people to use it as a base. My suggestion carries no weight and such a build isn't on Teddy's site.

    At the moment there simply isn't anyone with the necessary skills willing to take this monumental task on. The person who does this will every day have to face and be able to resist relentless pressure to incorporate hundreds of new and often pointless additions to Tomato, to have the resilience to read countless criticisms and personal attacks from posters, answer the same questions hundreds of times, and more. Increasingly the task becomes a chore and any pleasure that once existed evaporates rapidly. It is a thankless and never-ending task. Who would want it?

    It would then have to evolve by itself into a "stable" build based upon the user feedback, and this would take some time to happen. And then, the modders will decide by themselves whether to use it as a base or not. If you ask us all to decide on what is or is not a stable build I rather doubt that you'd get any agreement. But it's a bit pointless talking about it, because so far, we don't have anyone to do it. Without continuous development Tomato is ultimately doomed to disappear as other firmwares have done.

    BTW - it's interesting to see the new ASUS code incorporates much Tomato/TomatoUSB code, a lot of it largely rewritten including the QOS system in somewhat crippled form. There's a whole lot of new stuff out there to evaluate, but not much of it is useful.

  26. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    Almost TWO months with the latest 083V and I didn't have one single problem. Everything runs smoothly like day 1. All the businesses I have are converted to Shibby 083V.

    Great work, thanks to Teddy_Bear, Victek, Toastman and Teaman as well.
  27. FlashSWT

    FlashSWT Network Guru Member

    Got it, my mistake. So this forum right here is the official home of discussions for the majority of Tomato modders/developers.

    By "base" build I didn't mean one that all the modders would have to use as their base, I guess I should have said "simple" build. I mainly meant a feature stable build that would get bug fixes and nothing else, until new major features (like MultiSSID GUI) have been thoroughly tested in the mods. After all the modders and testers deemed the new feature was stable it could then be integrated into the base/simple build that is easily downloaded on the public website.

    I hope I'm explaining that well. Basically new, innovative, cutting edge development would continue right here as it always has. But there could be a more public face of Tomato that has relatively recent builds available.

    I understand the problem and am not criticizing anyone, the effort all the developers contribute is tremendous. Thanks to every one of you! I just wish it was easier for the general public to have access to this awesome firmware, it be great to see it spread even further. :)
    eahm likes this.
  28. eahm

    eahm LI Guru Member

    I just did few more tests and I actually ended up changing the firmware from 083V RT-N to 083V RT.

    My wife's laptop was the only one giving speed problems, I thought the issue was caused by the Mini-PCI Intel WiFi card but changing the drivers the speed went up from 249KB/s to 6MB/s (like every other WiFi device, they are a little faster too).

    My test:
    20 and 40 Mhz, Open and WPA2 AES Personal: 249KB/s

    20 and 40 Mhz, Open and WPA2 AES Personal: 6MB/s

    I know Winodws 7 also has networking bugs but even after I fixed them the speed problem was visible.

    Let's hope Teddy_Bear will release a better driver and Shibby will integrate it on the next build (or fix the issues of the 083V).

    * E3000 083V RT is still my primary router+mod/build for business.
    tommy likes this.
  29. Individual1

    Individual1 Serious Server Member

    As one of the "general public" that desperately wants to use Tomato on his E3000, it seems you need more accessible (in the "I can understand this" sense of the term) explanations of each branch/build of Tomato. I need some clarity and greater simplicity.

    I just want to know the thing will be stable and will do what I want it to do. So a clear (and reasonably current) table that says "if you want to use a VPN, the following builds will serve your purpose and are stable" - would be great (the Wiki table is great, but from what I've read, may not be very current and someone should define (or link to definitions of) the key terms or abbreviations (particularly the features).

    You can have, as has been suggested here, someone doing quality testing, blessing the 'best' builds (or best versions of a feature) although it is already done by declaration of the developer, but again, in a single page/table/chart - "this is stable," "really stable," "experimental," dare I say..."public beta." I take from this thread that no one (least of all me), want a single "master" build, but knowing what is (1) highly stable and (2) will do what I want it to do, is the bottom line for me.

    I am looking for simplicity. Maybe if each developer periodically looked at their work product and decided for him/herself: "this is the current version of my Tomato with the best balance of 'popular' features and is stable"- and there was one Tomato page to go to to see what each developer had most recently posted - that would be a boon in terms of making Tomato understandable to - and used by - us in the 'general public.'

    Some clear instructions for each router would be great, too. It shouldn't be too hard to do a page for each version of Tomato and each router (at least the few most frequently used). Google "installing-tomatousb-on-linksys-e3000" (in quotes) and see what Living in the Digital World wrote). Please, please, please. For the 80+% of us users that just want it to work... show us how simple it can be.

    Thanks to all of the Tomato developers - from what I've read, you are doing great work and I know that soon (once I'm VPN-Router enabled), I won't be able to live without it!
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