I'm willing to pony up $50 for a WRT6XXN for the Tomato dev.

Discussion in 'Tomato Firmware' started by badboyndsu, Sep 29, 2008.

  1. rizsher

    rizsher Network Guru Member

    I seem to recall DD-WRT had an offical deal with one of the router manufacturers (Asus maybe??) to produce firmware.. it is certainly doable...
  2. The Doctor

    The Doctor LI Guru Member

    The DD-WRT deal was with buffalo. I believe it was the WHR-HP-G54 model only.
  3. gawd0wns

    gawd0wns Network Guru Member

  4. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    maybe he doesn't want people like us bugging him all the time for new firmware. :)
  5. HKPolice

    HKPolice Network Guru Member

  6. murphm4n

    murphm4n Network Guru Member

    i'm with you.... bump ;)
  7. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    i don't think any amount of bumping is going to make a difference. :(
  8. luckman212

    luckman212 LI Guru Member

    :shocked: so sad to hear this
  9. Dudeman456

    Dudeman456 LI Guru Member

    Has anybody considered email the Developer about this thread?
  10. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    yup, you will be met with deafening silence. thus this thread is really pointless.
  11. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    well, technically it's all open source, so all it needs is for "someone" with the required programming skills to pick up the idea and run with it, not necessarily the original developer(s) of tomato.

    it could be called tomayto. you say tomato, we say tomayto! :)
  12. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Jon is, I am sure, well aware of what people might like. However, he may not have the time, or he may not have the inclination to go that far. It's his choice, he already gave us the existing Tomato, for which I'm grateful. For the next step, we have to be patient, and wait it out.

    People do seem to forget that developers do this work as a hobby, to please themselves, and for the betterment of mankind. He probably doesn't read any of these forums simply because of all of the complaining and demands. Ultimately, it is this attitude that kills off most projects.

    There is a strong possibility that a new developer will come along and continue this, but I wouldn't bet on Jon doing much more now.
  13. HKPolice

    HKPolice Network Guru Member

  14. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    lol, despite all the previous comments, the hongkong police still wants this badly. i'm wondering if the police is genuinely desperate or is trying to troll this :D
  15. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    how do you know it's the hong kong police?

    it could be the Hari Krishna Police :)
  16. baldrickturnip

    baldrickturnip LI Guru Member

    I think the next step for me will be the Ubiquiti routerstation pro with openwrt

    as speeds increase on the WAN side , the extra processing power and RAM is going to be required to manage the high throughput.
  17. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I have been considering what to do when we get higher speed internet services here. Since that will probably take about 10 years, I have plenty of time to decide :biggrin:

    I've been looking at 386 solutions but so far still did not find anything that has QOS anywhere near as configurable or as neat as Tomato's GUI. Anyone else tried anything that might do the trick ? A x86 version of Tomato would be nice.
  18. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    Configure on Tomato, do a quick conversion to IP tables and insert into dd-wrt fw script.
  19. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    by the time you add aradio's and a box to put it all in, you'll be looking at a pretty expensive piece of kit.

    i'm more tempted by the ASUS RT-N16 with dd-wrt (in development now, semi-working afaik).
  20. occamsrazor

    occamsrazor Network Guru Member

    If I had money to spend and wanted to try a non-Tomato router, I'd be more tempted by one of these
  21. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    I would like to ask if You would not prefer to see tomato-alike firmware designed for Asus RT-N16 instead of WRT6XXN?
  22. encore2097

    encore2097 Network Guru Member

    I would be willing to donate time or money to this endeavor. A gigabit, wireless-N router running tomato would be very beneficial.
  23. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    lol, this thread refuses to die. it shows the spirit and the desires of tomato users bogged down by slow obsolete hardware ;)
  24. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    Agreed. And choosed from worst series of linksys routers, also not available all over the world. Asus or TPLink would be much better choice.
  25. luckman212

    luckman212 LI Guru Member

    don't let this thread die!!:eek:
  26. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    what does / did it served while being alive? :eek:
  27. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    We (2 people for firmware and 1 for reverse & requirements engineering) are probably going to work on alternative firmware for Asus RT-N16 and others. This means that firmware will support RT-N16 and newer from this series, maybe also few older. We would also like to support some other powerful routers, especially few TPLinks, which are going to be cheaper alternative to Asus products. The software would be an alternative to tomato, designed for new line of network hardware. Features:
    * TOMATO-alike (GUI may change or not, depends on users needs)
    * all options configurable via web interface
    * all tomato 1.27 features
    * both QOS & IP/CONN limiter (htb & imq)
    * global statistics and per IP
    * IPv6 (native and bridge over IPv4)
    * OpenVPN
    + print server
    + DualWAN
    + bootable from USB
    + upgrades online

    the stars means that You can be sure, this feature will be included into firmware and we will focus on them. The pluses means that this features may also be available at sometime, depending on needs and technical ability.

    We are open, community-driven team. None of reported bug, feature or support request will not stay without answer. Please consider this thread as a way to ask us about this software and/or way to say your opinion about it. We are waiting for them, and will begin any works, only when we receive hardware and see that You are interested in our software.
  28. Ragnor

    Ragnor Addicted to LI Member

    Sounds great, now how can we help/donate?
  29. ladysman

    ladysman Network Guru Member

    I just ordered my RT-N16 yesterday. Amazon $85.
  30. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    more important than that, what are you going to call it?

    onion, cucumber, scallion? :)

    seriously though, if i could see it happening i'd be willing to donate to the cause and buy an r16 so i can beta test it.
  31. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    First of all, name is actually not the most important part of firmware. I think the most important things are:

    1) If You would really like it and consider useful? How many people are interested in new firmware and ready to help?
    2) Which routers should we support? Only RT-N16? I don't think this would be a great idea. I could propose to support as many as possible routers with USB, which are made by Asus, TpLink, maybe others?
    3) How and where to get the hardware, which in my country costs approximatelly 170USD (Asus RT-N16)?
  32. gingernut

    gingernut LI Guru Member

    I suggest the way the DD-wrt community do it on the DD-wrt forums.

    All interested in the project donate money, any amount, to some kind of account. When there are enough funds we all decide on a way to purchase the hardware and ship it to the devs for porting.
  33. vibe666

    vibe666 Network Guru Member

    really? no s**t sherlock!

    ever heard of a sense of humour (no, obviously not).
  34. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    gingernut, we are decided to work on it. The only problem is hardware (owned and supported). In my personal opinion we should support both Asus and TPLink hardware. The second one seems to be cheaper alternative to asus. Some models also has gigabit switch, draft-n and usb 2.0. Of course they have less flash/ram and slower cpu, but are nearly 2 times cheaper. What do You, guys think?
    We, as team has also paypal account. So if You are really willing to help and trust us, i can publish information. You can also PM me, or catch on IRC #epheket@freenode.
    If You have any questions - simply ask. I will try to answer to them all.

    vibe666, maybe i misunderstood You, i'm not native english speaker. i apologize then.
  35. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    I'm curious belliash, what would you be doing that could not be achieved with dd-wrt currently on these modern routers?
  36. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    And please tell me, what are the advantages of tomato over dd-wrt and why people chose tomato instead of dd-wrt if it is so good and powerful software?
  37. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    I dunno about others, I only choosed tomato for wrt54g because it just has a nicer interface to setup QoS, that's about it. Otherwise, the router interface is not a daily website that I visit, and my routers are all dusty in a corner. dd-wrt is just as rock solid as tomato for both of my routers that run them.

    That's why I'm posing the question to you, what are you writing that will be better than dd-wrt on the Asus router? Are you going to copy the tomato interface just wholesale over?
  38. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    Does dd-wrt allow You to do everything as tomato using web interface? I don't think so. The QOS in tomato is more adjustable via gui and you can also find some nice features in victek mod, which are not available in dd-wrt. For example, i personally do not find any settings related to htb and imq in dd-wrt. This is much quicker and easier to done instead of writing sripts on ppl's own. About the interface: i'm not sure yet how will it be looking like, but probably it will have new, fresh look'n'feel.
  39. gingernut

    gingernut LI Guru Member

    Most people choose Tomato over DD-wrt for stability, clear and user friendly interface and for it's excelent qos abilities.

    I've just ordered a TP-Link tl-wr941nd and would donate money for a Tomato firmware port.
  40. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    Nice offer and thanks to belliash & co.

    Reading all the requests on this forum (and some others too) for a few months now, one thing stands out clearly. People are asking for Tomato. There are plenty of developers out there working on various firmwares for other platforms, but none of them has the elegance and simplicity of Tomato's GUI and the QOS is in a league of it's own. There has been some attempt to provide an alternative (gargoyle for example) but nothing so far even comes close.

    Tomato's GUI is not available for use under GPL without permission from Jon Zarate. So - if it's to use Tomato's GUI, and is effectively a Tomato branch, then I believe you may get a lot of support. If not, then you will have to develop a GUI that comes very close to the functionality of Tomato - from scratch. That might take some time, and it may not be what people want.

    So far, there is no Tomato port that works with Draft N or N. Presumably that will be a goal, but for a beginning I believe many would at least go for the higher throughput of the latest, faster processors.

    As far as platform goes, the majority of interest at present seems to be in the RT-N16. I'm very interested too, although the RT-N16 isn't available here yet. But I'd like to see more details and a development plan, and I'd personally like to see such a project remain as a Tomato fork.

    And a Happy New Year, lest I forget!

    EDIT: January 9 2010 - Tomato mod released for RT-N16 http://www.linksysinfo.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63587
  41. ladysman

    ladysman Network Guru Member

  42. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    For my own use, yes, dd-wrt allows me to do everything that I can do on tomato. However, please don't get into a debate about dd-wrt vs tomato. This was not my question and is not my intention.

    dd-wrt runs on N and Gigabit router and serves my needs 100% with full stability and statisfaction. You are asking for contribution for a router to develop "tomato" on wifi N gigabit router. So if I were to participate or donate money for router for you to develop, answers to the questions below are very important:

    1. Are you developing the exact tomato interface, code and OS (with or without permission) in your coding effort into these new routers?

    2. If you are not doing #1, how is your code going to be different from tomato and will it be even more stable or functional compared to dd-wrt?

    Again, please don't argue about dd-wrt vs tomato, the question is really dd-wrt/tomato vs what-you-intend-to-develop.
  43. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    From our statement: "Our projects are deeply concerned with the usability and security. We will be guided by the needs of our software community and users."

    Of course we cannot say about usability without stability ;)
    First of all it is going to be functional comparable to Tomato RAF (made by Victek). However we think that even his mod lacks of some features (USB support, wifi draft-n/n, IPv6 and maybe others).
    As i wrote previously:
    * all options configurable via web interface
    * all tomato 1.27 & tomato RAF features
    * both QOS & IP/CONN limiter (htb & imq)
    * global statistics and per IP
    * IPv6 (native and bridge over IPv4)
    * OpenVPN

    this fatures are key for us (ofc not all once), however we would like to see them all in some time. We also consider:
    + printserver
    + booting from USB (dedicated partition or loopback device)
    + automatic online updates (live updates if booted from USB?)

    We are actually not sure about them and they may or may not be included - as i wrote in statement - we will be guided by your needs. I also consider making it bootable from USB first, to avoid potential bricks. This means that it could use ext2/ext3 partition or loopback device on FAT/NTFS. If none find - simply launch telnet and base services allowing for firmware changes. This have pros and cons -> all works would be made on disk/pendrive avoiding bricks, but would require USB device. And this does not mean, it would be booted only from USB. This could be merged in the future.

    About GUI:
    We are not going to use any existing. We would like to present our own web interface, or use one projected by someone from community.
  44. groosh

    groosh Addicted to LI Member

    With docsis 3 being offered in my area and cisco's new 8 + 4 modem being scheduled for release "shortly" I am starting to look at different routers with WAN connections capable of gigabit speeds.

    After doing some initial looking around the web I found myself dreading the idea of having to loose all that I have gained by using tomato and a few of its mods namely sgtpeppers tomato+vpn build which I use and enjoy very much. So I came here to see what tomato had in store for the newer routers on the market.

    By chance this thread was at the top of the list and I was drawn to it. Reading the various posts in the beginning it seems that there are those out there willing to provide support for a development effort. Then the thread took a turn for the worse and started being a tomato vs other debate. If I were interested in other, I would go to others threads and read about it. This vary site has many others to choose from, anyway... So here is my single attempt to get this thread back onto the topic I feel it was aimed at, leaving all the other development efforts where ever it is they want to squat.

    Has anyone heard from our fearless Tomato developer on any of his intentions to increase the scope of Tomato to include newer gigabit capable routers? If so I would be very much interested in his input, and any initial hardware lists that may be out there. I would also like to add my name to the list of those willing to support Jon's development efforts if he would be willing to take on the task.
  45. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    afaik, Jon is not going to support new router, ex because tomato is based on 2.4 kernel line, and nothing shows it may change in near future. I had not aimed at changing topic. Please take a look at first post filling date - 09-29-2008. Over year ago. And noone was ever interested in porting tomato, what should be easier, SHOULD BE. But we dont want to violate any license and/or stack on porting some tomato stuff. We would like to work on new, tomato-alike firmware, where "tomato-alike" does not mean fork, port, or any loon'n'feel alike software. All i have described above.

    EDITED: From what i know Asus RT-N16 has DualBand N, however software enables only 2.4. Not sure if it could be possible to enable also 5... Would need to take a look at router, and maybe try other software on it.
  46. TexasFlood

    TexasFlood Network Guru Member

    All indications are it's single (2.4GHz) router. While it appears that the Broadcom chip has support for 5GHz, the required support electronics are not present.
  47. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    hmmm... neuter xD thanks for explanation ;)
  48. TexasFlood

    TexasFlood Network Guru Member

    Wish that I could believe it supported 5GHz, as I bought one. But I don't based on what I've read. Not sure I see it as a problem right now. I was just at my sister's house over Christmas. She bought a dual band N router to replace a failed G router. The 5GHz coverage was so poor & unreliable that she ended up basically not using it so now I'm feeling like I might not be really missing anything.
  49. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    I think that too many assumptions are being made by posters.

    I can tell you that there IS development going on behind the scenes for Tomato on newer platforms such as the RT-N16. Note that most developers nowadays are very wary of making announcement until they are ready. Not wishing to upset anyone, but people do this in their own spare time and get very pissed off with people constantly "pushing", criticizing their efforts, and generally being negative. There are some in the forum who think that it's just a matter of a few high-school kids cobbling together firmware from scratch in their lunch break. Not so. It takes thousands of man-hours of work and more of testing.

    Much of the problem is the proprietary nature of drivers used in most of these routers. Without source code or proper documentation it is a long, time consuming process to use them correctly. Third party developers have no control over this and no amount of criticizing will make any difference to that.

    The case for "N" implementation with the newer drivers is even worse because there is so little information on their use. And the alternative is to write drivers by reverse engineering them, which is an even bigger problem, as this is an area requiring considerable knowledge and expertise. It ain't gonna happen, guys.

    Additionally, it makes more sense to implement future firmware using kernel 2.6. Again, I can tell you that there IS work going on to port Tomato over to the newer kernel.

    My own preference is for further **Tomato** development. But if there is to be a completely new firmware, I'd suggest finding a name and starting a new firmware development area for it. That way it'll get a little more serious attention. Rafal, posting a list of the developers, their previous experiences or projects, and a proposed development plan, would be a good idea so that people will feel comfortable with donations.
  50. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    @Toastman: your last post is rather vague. You had "bold" fonts on development of Tomato but you're not confirming or denying who are behind them. Is it just hearsay, rumors or you know for a fact but are just unwilling to confirm the facts?

    This revelation of yours might just make belliash's work redundant or duplicate.
  51. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    phuque99 - It was intended to be vague .... if those developers wanted to make an announcement, they would have done so. It is not for me to pre-empt this, because the developers are doing this work in their free time and of their own free will, but are constantly being pressured to deliver and criticised by forum members. So - just be assured that there IS development going on, and if we bide our time, and don't get impatient, we will all be very happy bunnies :drinking:

    If you all start applying pressure on developers, they will react badly, as you would yourself. Nobody likes being told what he must do, when he must do it, and how it must be done.
  52. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    And who is working on tomato support for newer routers? Jon? Victek? I dont think any of them. This is rather rumour... none specifics... Seems even like you would not like us to work on something. So please be more specific...
  53. mstombs

    mstombs Network Guru Member

    Isn't this clear that "someone" is working on a new router?


    Victek has also purchased WRT150/160N routers for 'evaluation'.
  54. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    Nothing personal, just.... i am not native english speaker, thats the first point, and the second one router != firmware. So when You are writing that someone is working on new router...yes.. it's not going to be clear ;)
  55. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    belliash, phuque99, etc.

    Please don't take offense. Look around for the signs, there are plenty in the source codes of different firmware, in posts on this forum, on Asus, openwrt, and dd-wrt forums. Just by reading these different forums I can see at least 4, and perhaps 5 or 6, developers presently "tinkering" with Tomato, the Asus RT-N16 and similar, and 2.6 kernel at present.
  56. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    No offense taken, just trying to clarify what or who is the real deal :wink:
  57. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

  58. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    Anyway it is just 'clean' tomato. I do not see:
    + IPv6 support
    + htb & imq
    + print server

    Maybe we will see some mods in future, but just wonder if it will support all of them? Especially IPv6, which many people was asking Jon about? And it is going to be dedicated for small group of routers. When new hardware comes out, all will have to wait until it is supported. When firmware works on more hardware, then has more users and testers. More bugs are found, and software goes better in less time. It also gives motivation for developers and of course there are more developers and everyone of them has hardware supported by software and do not need to buy another one. This avoids topics like that one and brings more universal solution for everyone.
  59. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    I guess that's the direction dd-wrt is doing more hardware more testers, more bugs ironed out.
  60. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    And don't U think this is the second best firmware (DD-WRT)? The first one is tomato ofc. I wonder why tomato authors are closing it...dedicating just for small group of hardware. Wouldn't You like to see tomato running on all "specific" hardware like dd-wrt? By specific i mean some sort of routers with comparable equipment, eg all with USB support and eg at least 4MB flash?
  61. humba

    humba Network Guru Member

    Maybe because it's just Jon working on it? More features, different hardware means a lot more effort.
  62. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    and everyone makes own mod... one has VPN, another USB support... none has all features... sad
  63. phuque99

    phuque99 LI Guru Member

    i don't personally believe that firmwares are "religion" thus there's no such thing called tomato is first or dd-wrt is first. what's first and what's best is just what works for me in my environment that fulfill my needs. that beings said, both are equal and does what it does.

    that being said, i do agree with the thought that more exposure to beta testers that are willing to take risks to provide feedback will definitely increase increase support for larger number of routers. however, that being said, tomato is free. with that fact, developers are under no obligation to give a thought on what user want. they are only obliged to develop what ever they please and when ever they desire.
  64. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    belliash - Surely that was the purpose of moving away from the severely limited routers we have been using up to now, to something with more memory, more flash space, and more powerful processor. Now, if you wish wish to add several of these modules to a really "huge" compile you can do it.

    I think that with this beta release from Fedor, we are actually seeing things "open up" rather than becoming more restrictive.

    I don't think this is happening, not deliberately anyway. The older generation of routers was just too limited to take much further. The best of them were supported already. DD-WRT, for example, tried to cram too much stuff into flash and memory space that was simply too small, and the result was a firmware which gained the reputation of being unstable. Now the next generation includes "N" routers and better hardware, things should be a lot easier.

    Teddy Bear has also indicated that, time permitting, he will also try to expand the router base to include other models. To quote from his post:

    Clearly, there's enough work to go round .... so quoting from your post:

    Perhaps this is something your team could work on?
  65. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    @Toastman: indeed

    Just one more thought: AFAIK Victek was working on tomato version for RT-N16, and teddy_bear has rally made it working. So they doubled their works, right? And what now? teddy_bear will maintain tomato for new routers and Victek will add some extra features for his Tomato RAF? Asus has more flash capacity... why ex. can't they join and work together? Both adding extra features and increasing stability?

    Maybe i am wrong - correct me if i am, but i think most tomato mods are created to meet author's needs. Is it ok, when everyone works and creates something else? Shouldn't development be driven little more by community? How many tomato mods do we have? I think the most optimal here is openwrt which allows admins to install software and services they need. Tomato has slighty different architecture. But let's think - why we have so many tomato mods and to be honest none of them support all available features? No-one is obligated to use treat all of them as usefull, and to use them, but sometimes they get usefull. Some of You may say that tomato RAF is best call it "edition" but eg does not support USB, what forces You to use another build. Yes... i agree... older routers has less memory... but we are talking about tomato ported to RT-N16.

    Another thing -> don't U think that calling it still "tomato" may cause mistakes and misunderstands?
  66. humba

    humba Network Guru Member

    I think we had that topic prior to having the GIT repository... it makes merging of the different mods feasible but it still needs somebody who's willing to make the effort to get it working and maintain it thereafter.

    This all being open source - it's the nature of the beast that developers usually have somewhat selfish goals to do a certain things. And because they are volunteers, they can do whatever they like and you don't get to complain. Sure it would be nice to have it all in one place, but unless you're making a significant contribution yourself, you haven't really earned the right to demand anything. As I said the topic has been raised before - if any of the modders want to pool their resources, I think that decision needs to be made by themselves and third parties clamoring for it could even be counterproductive - at least that's how things work in the open source projects I'm involved in.
  67. belliash

    belliash Addicted to LI Member

    humba, i know how does things work in open source projects. And this is not good for both projects and their communities. That's the reason why we believe in GNU philosophy. In all our works we try to be guided by the needs of software community and users. By placing their interests first in priorities and supporting their needs, software becomes more useful, has more bug fixes and more users. Good project should be concerned with the usability and security.

    And one more thing:
    Today we already have tomato with usb support. But it's is impossible to pivot root from disk or pendrive. What are the advantages of this solution? All users, who owned router with usb, supported by tomato could install 3rd party software (eg torrent client, or any other) and extend hardware abilities and activities. This guy will not feel happy, i think: http://www.linksysinfo.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63600 or he has some time, knowledge and skills to create another mod...
  68. Toastman

    Toastman Super Moderator Staff Member Member

    belliash - it is TOMATO - which is what we wanted. It is using the Tomato GUI, the concept that Jon originated. The use of the Tomato GUI is restricted to Tomato. So it has to be called Tomato. You seem to wish to break these terms? The rest of the basic mods, in the past, have slowly made it into Jon's releases - miniUPnPd and other upgrader for example. After this mod has made it onto other platforms, it will still be a branch of tomato and I expect the base tomato kept up by Jon Zarate will remain fast, lean and minimalist.

    Jon IS aware of this new development.

    Here we are, just ONE DAY after Teddy Bear has accomplished something quite outstanding, having

    a) Upgraded Tomato to a newer kernel and b) Ported it to a new router - and what happens?

    People already busy complaining that it doesn't have x, y, and z. and that developers are "doubling their effort" by working on the same thing. This is very sad, very negative, and very childish. Anyone can talk. Some people actually do things. Think about it.

    I guess we are all very lucky that they don't take umbrage and just tell everyone "enough is enough".

    So, why not go ahead, work on your project, add all these things you are complaining are lacking, and release it? Scapi has something he wants, but you say he won't be happy. So why not do it for him yourself, then ? Please stop criticizing the efforts of others. You are free to develop your firmware as you wish, but you don't need to create divisions and bad feelings in order to do so.
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