Long range WDS or client bridge

Discussion in 'Cisco/Linksys Wireless Routers' started by crawdaddy, Oct 19, 2006.

  1. crawdaddy

    crawdaddy Network Guru Member

    I'm trying to make plans for a decent sized wireless network. I'm shooting a .2 mile link, and I've got it figured out with a couple different ways I can shoot that long of a link. The problem comes in that I want to be able to run a wireless connection on the long side of the link, instead of hardwiring to my far end router. I was thinking I could do WDS, however, I'm either going to be using a yagi or an outdoor high gain omni. If I have to go the yagi route, then I'm not going to get the client coverage that I want/need. I know running diversity on the WRT54G with a directional and an omin doesn't really work, since that's not how it works. So, how can I pull this off without putting 2 routers at the end of the link, one in client bridge and one in AP. Not that I think this will help with people's responses, but here's a sat photo of the link I'm shooting- http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/crawdaddy444/Camp/networklayout.jpg . I'm trying to go from the sat modem and router to Location 3 on that map. Thanks in advance
  2. u3gyxap

    u3gyxap Network Guru Member

    Well, it looks to me that you can do it without setting 2 devices/2 antennas at the main location. SInce you will be running WDS it doesn't matter which location you will be using for your main. I would use 90* panel @ location1 and yagis for the other locations. That is if all locations have clear line of sight with location1. See the picture.
    BTW, nice camp :)
  3. crawdaddy

    crawdaddy Network Guru Member

    I was thinking about yagis at my satellite locations, however, running WDS, how do I then provide coverage at the locations that I'm setting routers up at, since yagis only have, say, 14 degrees of beamwidth. That's my real question here. At my remote locations I want to provide a nice swath of signal to the buildings they are located in. In client bridge, I can of course hardwire the clients to the router, but I want to provide wireless coverage to these locations, since other staff memebers are likeley to be using them in their tents around the buildings and such, so running 1000 foot of cat 5 to all these diffrente tent pads doesn't exactly make much sense.... And that's the local Boy Scout camp down here in the southern Louisiana/Mississippi area. ;)
  4. HennieM

    HennieM Network Guru Member

    Can't quite make out if it's 0.2 miles (as in the text in your 1st post) or 2 miles. Anyway, if you have LOS between points (you mention Louisiana ;-), you'll do 2 miles with 12 or 15 dBi antennas.

    Now, an antenna does not cover ONLY the 3dB (or more correctly, the -3dB) beamwidth area, but has a much wider beamwidth, albeit at lower strength, and antennas also have side-lobes. If the mentioned 14 deg. Yagis won't do the trick, there are plenty 12/13/14 dBi Yagis or patch antennas around that have a 3dB beamwidth of around 30 degrees or more.

    Depending on the size of the buildings, and the roof/side material, you can mount such an antenna at just about the far end of the building/area you need to cover (furthest from the point you are linking to). The antenna's side lobes and intersection of the -6/-9/-12 dB beamwidth with the building, at the proportionally lower signal strength, should provide AP cover inside and around it, while the main beam provides the long range link.
  5. crawdaddy

    crawdaddy Network Guru Member

    I never thought about the secondary lobes of the yagi. I have yet to actually TEST what kind of lobes the yagi's I'd use have (outdoor 14db yagi from hyperlinktech), but I definitley will. The distance is only .2 miles(.5 max I'd say) between buildings, however, there is moderate to dense sections of woods there. Now, once again, this is LA, so they are pine trees, which only have foliage at the top, but it's still trees that are in the way, so I'd say I have somewhere between LOS and NLOS...
  6. HennieM

    HennieM Network Guru Member

    If you have trees in the way, my amateur figuring says that a wider beamwidth antenna would create more area where your signal can reflect off of the trees, and eventually get to the other side. If one tree gets in the way of a thin beam (like a laser pointer), it's lost.

    With the distance being only 0.2, or max 0.5 miles (800m), you could do the link with reflectors on the stock antennas of a WRT, or maybe just test to see how much signal you get through. Heck, I would think that even the stock antennas alone, with power pumped up a bit, may get through.

    Better make your final selection in summer, as even pine trees have a lot more water in summer, which eat signal like crazy.
  7. crawdaddy

    crawdaddy Network Guru Member

    Last summer, I used a pair of the 7db omni Linksys antennas and my pair of bidirectional amps (one was 1 watt and and was 500mw). I did manage to create a link with that. However, it was not stable enough to be to my liking. Later in the summer it flat out stopped working, though I partially suspect it completley dieing to someone else messing with my settings...but I am going to try this summer with my 14db outdoor omni paired with my 1 watt amp located at either the place where the sat modem is, or location one, and then have my 14db outdoor yagi at location 3 with my 500mw amp. I'm thinking that I could be able to get enough gain and power with each to make a nice, solid link. I just gotta put up a couple masts to mount the beasts to....
  8. t0ffluss

    t0ffluss Network Guru Member

    well.. Im currently sitting on me neighbours internet connection (approx 0.2miles)

    im using a 19dBi flat panel antenna, WRT54GS, with DD-wrt and 28mW output power. (default)
    (And I guess my neighbour has stock antennas, on some sort of accesspoint)
    Actually I'we managed to get a decent connection with a 24dBi antenna and stock antennas over 1.9miles. Did a little war driving when I tested my new gear. :p

    so, If you have LOS, you should be fine.

  9. crawdaddy

    crawdaddy Network Guru Member

    Next time I go up to camp for a camping trip, I'll take my 20x paintball scope with me to make sure I do have LOS or NLOS. I'm somewhat worried bout my fresnel zone. It's 6.24 feet in diameter, and I'm hoping that I have that much of a mostly clear path. I'm thinking of sticking another router with a pair of the Linksys 7db omnis in WDS at the shower house that's right about halfway between the 2 buildings I'm trying to link for good measure. It's not directly in the path IIRC, however, it should be close enough that if I have trouble getting the link working, I can stick a router there for good measure, which I guess brings up another question about WDS. If I had 3 routers doing WDS and had the MACs of the other 2 routers in all 3, would I have looping problems, or would my mid router just kinda act as a redundant path? BTW, this is the equipment list I have/plan on using:
    http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/ha2401rtg.php (indoor 1 watt model)
    http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/ha2401g.php (indoor 500mw model)

    I'm fairly encouraged with this, I'm thinking that will give me a nice solid link.
  10. HennieM

    HennieM Network Guru Member

    If you run firmware that supports Spanning Tree Protocol, such as Thibor15c, the SPT should sort out your loops, and you should have redundant links.

    IMHO the amps may not help much - they tend to amplify signal as well as noise, and noise is usually the problem with obstacles in the way. If you have LOS however, the amps will most likely do their thing. Then again, LOS over 0.2 miles - no amp required....

    Once you set up, do share some figures (amps vs. no amps) please.
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